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#81
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flaps again
On 2008-01-03 09:13:40 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:
C J Campbell wrote: On 2008-01-01 15:04:33 -0800, Dudley Henriques said: B A R R Y wrote: On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques wrote: Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an emergency? :-)) His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an emergency. The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to have the right flap fall completely off. G Now THAT would be an attention getter for the average Sunday pilot in a big hurry :-)) One day I went out to preflight a Cessna 172 and the right wing flap was folded up like a taco. The solo student who had flown the plane previously claimed that he had not noticed anything wrong, but that he had heard a "grinding noise," so he did a few more touch and goes and then quit early. The flap had jumped the tracks and folded up in flight. It appears that the student made three more landings after the flap folded up. For the record, he was not my student. Kind of makes you wonder who's teaching people to fly in such a way that the end result would be a student who hears something unusual in his airplane and takes off without knowing or obviously caring what it is. Unbelievable!! :-)) Man, you would think he would at least have noticed something different about the way the airplane flew! However, if it makes you feel better, I remember his instructor having a very loooong chat with him. Turned out the flaps had probably jumped the track when he lowered them at 120 knots. -- Waddling Eagle World Famous Flight Instructor |
#82
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flaps again
C J Campbell wrote:
On 2008-01-03 09:13:40 -0800, Dudley Henriques said: C J Campbell wrote: On 2008-01-01 15:04:33 -0800, Dudley Henriques said: B A R R Y wrote: On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques wrote: Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an emergency? :-)) His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an emergency. The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to have the right flap fall completely off. G Now THAT would be an attention getter for the average Sunday pilot in a big hurry :-)) One day I went out to preflight a Cessna 172 and the right wing flap was folded up like a taco. The solo student who had flown the plane previously claimed that he had not noticed anything wrong, but that he had heard a "grinding noise," so he did a few more touch and goes and then quit early. The flap had jumped the tracks and folded up in flight. It appears that the student made three more landings after the flap folded up. For the record, he was not my student. Kind of makes you wonder who's teaching people to fly in such a way that the end result would be a student who hears something unusual in his airplane and takes off without knowing or obviously caring what it is. Unbelievable!! :-)) Man, you would think he would at least have noticed something different about the way the airplane flew! However, if it makes you feel better, I remember his instructor having a very loooong chat with him. Turned out the flaps had probably jumped the track when he lowered them at 120 knots. Sounds like a lesson was in there somewhere for somebody. Depending on the exact circumstances, I think I might have wanted a few words with the instructor as well. This kind of judgment found post incident in a student is cause for at least some concern in that direction. -- Dudley Henriques |
#83
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flaps again
On 2008-01-03 17:46:37 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:
C J Campbell wrote: On 2008-01-03 09:13:40 -0800, Dudley Henriques said: C J Campbell wrote: On 2008-01-01 15:04:33 -0800, Dudley Henriques said: B A R R Y wrote: On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques wrote: Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an emergency? :-)) His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an emergency. The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to have the right flap fall completely off. G Now THAT would be an attention getter for the average Sunday pilot in a big hurry :-)) One day I went out to preflight a Cessna 172 and the right wing flap was folded up like a taco. The solo student who had flown the plane previously claimed that he had not noticed anything wrong, but that he had heard a "grinding noise," so he did a few more touch and goes and then quit early. The flap had jumped the tracks and folded up in flight. It appears that the student made three more landings after the flap folded up. For the record, he was not my student. Kind of makes you wonder who's teaching people to fly in such a way that the end result would be a student who hears something unusual in his airplane and takes off without knowing or obviously caring what it is. Unbelievable!! :-)) Man, you would think he would at least have noticed something different about the way the airplane flew! However, if it makes you feel better, I remember his instructor having a very loooong chat with him. Turned out the flaps had probably jumped the track when he lowered them at 120 knots. Sounds like a lesson was in there somewhere for somebody. Depending on the exact circumstances, I think I might have wanted a few words with the instructor as well. This kind of judgment found post incident in a student is cause for at least some concern in that direction. I have to agree. Unfortunately, I was a student myself at the time (different instructor). Now those instructors are flying for the airlines somewhere... Well, perhaps they have gained more wisdom with maturity. Probably the kid who busted the flaps is flying for the airlines somewhere. Well, I don't want to get into criticizing other flight instructors. I do that too often as it is, and it is healthy neither for me nor for the profession. -- Waddling Eagle World Famous Flight Instructor |
#84
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flaps again
C J Campbell wrote:
Well, I don't want to get into criticizing other flight instructors. I do that too often as it is, and it is healthy neither for me nor for the profession. We'll have to get together some time and hash this one over a bit :-)) -- Dudley Henriques |
#85
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flaps again
On 3 Jan, 09:16, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:15 pm, wrote: On Jan 2, 4:35 pm, Michael wrote: Which brings us to the one (and only) difference between landing flaps up and gear up. *Gear up is expensive, every time. *Flaps up is actually more likely to be fatal (as in, you get too slow in a turn) but most of the time it costs nothing at all except some extra runway, which is free. *That's it. * * * * *Unless you are landing on a minimal runway, as we often do out here in the Canadian west. An inadvertent flaps-up landing can get really messy at the far end, depending on the obstacles that might be there. Not really, you just need to learn how to land better, making use of flare and ground effect. Landing with zero flaps, needs a tricky extended flare and once the tires are on the runway, keep the nose up, with pitch control to the elevator, that way the entire main wing operates as an air brake. Be very gentle on wheel braking control because that will lower the nose, and you want the nose as high as possible, while rolling. Once the nose falls, it's hard to get it up because of the relation of the CM to the wheel contact point on the ground. At a high AOA, the CM is pretty close to the vertical location of the wheel contact point, and the elevator is effective. The key is to understand the wheel contact point in relation to the CM. Most A/C with tricycle gear are designed to keep the weight on the mains and keep the forward lightly loaded. Ken Good grief. Bertie |
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