If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
wrote in message . com...
[snip] (Issac Goldberg) wrote in message . com... The main point, which Hillel does his best to avoid is: Congress never conducted an investigation solely concerning the USS Liberty affair, and Cristol's web page does not refute that. Congress never conducted an investigation of *MOST* affairs. Congress usually investigates only if there is a high profile case or there are indications that the executive branch lied; e.g. Joseph McCarthy communists' hunt, Iran-Contra affair, Watergate. Congress has thoroughly investigated every disaster involving the US Navy EXCEPT for the USS Liberty. [snip] |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
(Mike Weeks) wrote:
From: (Issac Goldberg) wrote: [snip] Congress never conducted an investigation solely concerning the USS Liberty affair, and Cristol's web page does not refute that. LOL: Well it does appear this poster believes only what's available on the net counts for anything and there's nothing else; what a strange world it must be. Note: Weeks does not refute my statement. He can't. He just muddies the waters with another of his typically inane arguments. Nowhere on Cristol's web page is there any evidence that Congress conducted a thorough investigation of the Liberty attack, nor is there any evidence of a Congressional report which exonerates Israel. Cristol's web page does link to the following Congressional events: 1) An investigation of DOD communication failures, and 2) Hearings into the 1967 Foreign Aid Bill. To say that Congress conducted a thorough investigation of the attack on the Liberty based on the two events cited by Cristol is a complete fabrication. Since the two above Congressional events did not concentrate on the question to whether the attack on the Liberty was intentional, it is not surprising that they "found no evidence that the Israeli attack was intentional." One could have just as easily said that Congress "found no evidence that the Israeli attack was an accident," since the attack itself was never thoroughly investigated by Congress. Let's see; still too lazy to actually read a book? If not, try "The Liberty Incident", Cristol's book incorrectly implies that Congress conducted a thorough investigation of the Liberty affair and exonerated Israel. However, since there was no thorough investigation by Congress, then there was no report stating that the attack was an accident. To imply so is the kind of dishonest truth bending that Bush used to convince the American people to support the invasion of Iraq. Bush implied that Saddam was directly responsible for 9/11, without actually saying it. Bush was so successful in his deceit that a majority of the American people, at the time of the last invasion of Iraq, believed that Saddam was responsible for 9/11. [Bush poll numbers continue to hit new lows, now that his lies and half-truths have become public knowledge.] Q: If there had been a thorough Congressional investigation of the attack on the Liberty which produced a report exonerating the Israelis, then why didn't Cristol include a link to that report? A: There was no such report or investigation. |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
(Issac Goldberg) wrote in message om...
wrote in message . com... What Mike does best is finding the facts and presenting his conclusions based on the facts; e.g. you are an idiot. Another poster whose arguments are so weak that he feels the need to resort to childish name calling. He acknowledges that Congress has never conducted an investigation devoted solely to the Liberty affair. What makes "Congress" more qualified to run an investigation than the CIA? Ah, it's the old 'move the goalposts' ploy. When confronted with the fact Congress did not conduct a thorough investigation of the Liberty affair, some people denigrate Congress. So what? To make an investigation you need the power of subpoena and people who can ask the right questions. a Navy court of inquiry has those powers, and it is the standard tool for the US Navy to find the facts. Do you think that Congress should double check every Navy inquiry, or just the Liberty? If just the Liberty then please explain what the Navy's court did wrong and how Congress may be able to fix. IMO the Navy's court of inquiry has a better record of finding the facts than Congress. If you reject this claim then please give examples of Navy courtof inquiry making mistake, and Congress fixing them. Can Congress get more data? A Congressional investigation can ask the CIA to testify on all of the data that has been collected. A Navy court of inquiry can subpoena the CIA just like Congress can. And since the Navy is better than Congress in keeping secrets, the CIA will probably be more willing to coopertae. Does Congress have deeper understanding of Israel? A non sequitur with regard to the question of whether the attack on the Liberty was intentional or not. You claim that Congress investigation will be "better." I claim that for better investigation you should either have the ability to collect more data, or the ability to understand the data better. Do you reject my claim, yes or no? And if yes then what is your counter-claim? Does Congress have better exprerts in navies-at-war issues than the US Navy? Congress can request the testimony of the US Navy's finest experts, who are then obligated to give truthful answers, or face jail terms. You assume that in short time Congressmen can become better experts than people who spent years in sea commanding ships. I don't know what is the base of your assumption, but I can tell you that you can force people to tell you what they know, but knoweldge and understanding is very different thing. E.g. a clueless person like you who has access to all the data and still has no clue. In other words, why should Congresss investigate the Liberty incidence after the CIA concluded that the Israeli explanation is reasonable. Believe it or not, the CIA is not always right. Believe it or not, Congress is not always right. Believe it or not, Joseph McCarthy "investigations" did not catch a single Russian spy. Again, do you want to Congress to double-check everything that the CIA say, or just the Liberty? And if just the Liberty then please explain why the CIA can't be trusted in that case. Make a case why the executive branch can't be trusted or shut up. Also, the CIA is subject to political pressure which may cause them to change their correct conclusions to something else. Kind of like when Vice President Cheney made his visits to CIA HQ at Langley, and the CIA then started to find reasons to invade Iraq. You make two baseless assumptions: 1) The Johnson adminstration put pressure on the CIA to lie about Liberty. 2) Under eight different administrations, over 37 years, nobody in the CIA discovered that their conclusions were baseless. Again, make a case why the CIA can't be trusted in it Liberty conclusions, or shut up. The President can replace anyone at the CIA, including the director, whenever he wants. Yes. You can make a case that Johnson had enough power to force the CIA to lie about Liberty, but you still have to supply a motive. You also have to explain how such a cover-up, invloving so many people, can remian secret for 37 years. But the President cannot replace members of Congress, since only the voters choose members of Congress. Therefore, Congress should investigate because they do not serve at the pleasure of the President. I see. We should get rid off Grand Juries, Court of Inquiries, and all that jazz, and let just Congress investigate because only Congress can be trusted. (See http://libertyincident.com/cia.htm @The Central Intelligence Agency completed an Intelligence @Memorandum titled The Attack on the USS Liberty on 13 Jun @1967. It was declassified on 31 Aug 1977. On page 4, in @paragraph 5, the report concludes that the Liberty could @easily be mistaken for the Egyptian transport El Quesir.) Common sense refutes this. The El Quesir was not outfitted with a large and uniquely identifying antenna dish. The first target attacked by the Israeli pilots was Liberty's communications, and the large and uniquely identifying antenna dish was quickly put out of action. If the El Quesir by some miracle had been converted to an intelligence vessel with a large and uniquely identifying antenna dish, it would have been targeted and destroyed on the first day of the war. It sounds like there may have been some political pressure put on the CIA to produce the results that LBJ wanted. |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
(Steve Richter) wrote in message . com...
wrote in message . com... What makes "Congress" more qualified to run an investigation than the CIA? Can Congress get more data? Does Congress have deeper understanding of Israel? Does Congress have better exprerts in navies-at-war issues than the US NAvy? 1st, Congress has the legal authority to place witnesses under oath. Other branches of government also have the right to place witnesses under oath. E.g. a Grand jury and a Court of Inquiry. 2nd, as an equal branch of government to the executive, can demand full access to all information known by the GOUS. Having information, and using the information, are two different issues. IMO Rear Admiral Isaac Kidd, and his court, had a better understanding of navy operations in war zone than Congress does. If you diagree then please explain why. Thirdly, and most important, the US Congress owns Israel from the perspective that it authorizes the billions of $$ each year that the US gives to Israel to conduct its brutal occupation of the palestinian territories. The Congress could, if it wanted, force Israel to release what it knows. Do you really believe that Israel could keep such a secret, involving so many people for 37 years? Anyway, treating a client state like **** is not always the best course of action. See France before the 6-Days-War for example. You may end up saving $3 billion per year on Israel, and spending $50 billion extra to save pro-US regimes in Iraq, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. To this day, Israel refuses to release crucial facts of the attack on the American ship. And the source of your information is...? How do you know what deals Israel made with the US? Do you want Congress also to publish other information that the US promised to keep secret? (E.g. the condition to US inspections is Dimona was that the US would keep the information secret. Should the US ignore its promise just because it will serve better your political agenda?) This is one item amoung many where Israel's explanations do not answer legitimate questions about the attack. What did the Israeli coastal radar net see when its operators looked at the Liberty? What "Israel coastal radar net" in 1967?! Where did you get that idea? Don't you know that in 1967 the Israeli "navy" was a collection of WWII quality small ships? Israel had a couple of old naval radars, near its bigget navy bases (Haifa and Ashdod), but it did not have a radar that could look over the horizon. The public has been told how the Israeli Naval command forgot it knew of the American spy ship Liberty the morning of 8 June, hours before it ordered the attack. What an *IGNORANT* like you can't get is simple navy fighting facts. If you want to sink a ship using 1967 airplanes then you used half iron bombs, just like the US did in Midway. If you want to sink a ship, and cover your ass, then you use submarines, not torpedo boats that display your flag. If Israel tried to sink a US ship, knowing that it was a US ship, then this is a case of gross incompetence. The "cover-up" before the attack was pretty bad. You claim that the same people who did everything wrong before the attack have done everything right in the cover-up. I wonder if you really believe in your high quality bull****. So yes, Hillel, a congressional investigation is long overdue and worthwhile to the American public. So write to your Congressman and ask of an investigation. You may find one as stupid as you are, even though it is not that easy. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
#Congress never conducted an investigation of *MOST* affairs. Congress
# usually investigates only if there is a high profile case or there # are indications that the executive branch lied; e.g. Joseph McCarthy # communists' hunt, Iran-Contra affair, Watergate. (Issac Goldberg) wrote in message . com... Congress has thoroughly investigated every disaster involving the US Navy EXCEPT for the USS Liberty. Really?! Would you like to compare the The USS Stark Incident (see http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/id344.htm), with 37 American seamen dead, to the Liberty? Can you please tell us what special investgation Congress did about the Stark and not about the Liberty? Come on, you made a claim now prove it. BTW my impression is that Congress usually accepts the Navy's Court of inquiry conclusions; e.g. USS Greeneville. If you have some counter examples, where Congress rejected the Navy's Court of inquiry conclusions, then please post them. |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
(Mike Weeks) wrote in message ...
From: (Theodore Herzl) Date: 6/29/2004 17:26 Pacific Daylight Time It seems rather reasonable to investigate anew the events surrounding the USS Liberty attack in public investigation that settles this once and for all. The challenge for the conspiracy loons Weeks knows all, sees all. Since he is omniscient, anyone who disagrees with him is a 'conspiracy loon.' QED running around on the net is to actually produce anything which can be considered credible. So, according to Weeks: 1) the crew members of the USS Liberty are not credible, 2) Captain Boston is not credible, 3) Secretary of State Rusk is not credible, 4) CIA director Helms is not credible, and the list goes on and on. Weeks is always right, everybody else is always wrong. Instead what we continue to see is simply hot stale air. All of the hot stale air is being produced by Weeks. This is demonstrated by his repeated need to resort to name calling. If he had a valid argument, there would be no need to engage in name calling. Oh, BTW clueless, what's available to be investigated is indeed public, A nice tautology. It's the material which is not public which should be investigated. Why, after 37 years, is so much information about the attack on the Liberty still classified by the US and Israeli governments? and the last really solid piece of material came out of the NSA in July 2003 and State Dept. in Jan. 2004, and once again as in the other examples, it doesn't support the claims of the conspiracy loons. We'll just have to take Weeks word for it, since he doesn't tell use exactly what the 'really solid' material is. This is natural for Weeks, since he sees all, knows all. Weeks is omniscient, and he does not need to provide any evidence. Weeks just knows. Besides, all we hear from the nuts ... Anyone who disagrees with Weeks is a nut. Remaining nonsense snipped. It is Weeks' arguments that are nonsense. He is so extreme in his opposition to an honest investigation that one must ask why? If the attack was truly an accident, an honest independent investigation would confirm what Weeks says. But he opposes a new investigation with every ounce of energy he possesses. Why? |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
|
#19
|
|||
|
|||
|
#20
|
|||
|
|||
wrote in message . com...
(Issac Goldberg) wrote in message . com... [snip] Why, after 37 years, is so much information about the attack on the Liberty still classified by the US and Israeli governments? Why don't you ask LVA. Are they in charge of both American and Israeli classification of secret documents? I am sure that they know what the mission of the Liberty was. Are you omniscient? How can you be 'sure' what LVA knows? Why would the entire crew be told the details of a top secret mission, instead of only those with a 'need-to-know?' And if you know so much, would you like to tell us the details of Operation Cyanide? |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
USS LIBERTY CASE EVIDENCE JUSTIFIES REOPENING | Ewe n0 who | Military Aviation | 0 | April 2nd 04 08:31 PM |
USS LIBERTY CASE EVIDENCE JUSTIFIES REOPENING | Ewe n0 who | Naval Aviation | 0 | April 2nd 04 08:31 PM |
THOMAS MOORER, EX-JOINT CHIEFS CHAIR DIES | Ewe n0 who | Naval Aviation | 4 | February 21st 04 09:01 PM |
THOMAS MOORER, EX-JOINT CHIEFS CHAIR DIES | Ewe n0 who | Military Aviation | 2 | February 12th 04 12:52 AM |
Letter from USS Liberty Survivor | Grantland | Military Aviation | 1 | July 17th 03 03:44 PM |