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Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 12th 21, 08:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 12:47:05 PM UTC-4, Guy Acheson wrote:
Sounds like it is time to end this conversation.
Why does it always end up with personal attacks?


Guy, don't worry I have thick skin, Fitch is just being Fitch. COVID has brought out all the anger in these motorglider pilots, hopefully they will get all their vaccinations soon.
  #22  
Old April 12th 21, 10:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
waremark
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Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

"If anything, a motorglider has a performance disadvantage compared to a motorless, because the ballast choices are limited. It is operationally more complicated during a landout, as everything the "purist" must consider has to be considered, along with deploying and starting an engine. Abandoning further cross country flight has to be done earlier and higher, a disadvantage."

All that is true, and I think in a competition the motorglider therefore has a net disadvantage, and more so for a self-launcher with its higher minimum wing loading. On the other hand, for what I might call the relaxed leisure pilot, motorglider pilots at my club tend to attempt flights further away from home or in more dubious conditions than pilots of pure gliders - because for a relaxed leisure flight pilots are less keen to risk a landout far from home. I accept that there must be pilots with enthusiastic crews who are more bold, but I don't know them!

Most of the pilots at my club who now fly motorgliders were being rude about motorglider pilots 20 years ago. But virtually everyone who has bought a new glider in the last 10 years has bought it with an engine, whether internal combustion, jet or electric.

Both in my club and on the UK BGA Ladder there is a trophy for the best result in a 'non MOP' glider.

  #23  
Old April 13th 21, 02:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Wallace Berry[_2_]
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Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 4:59:35 PM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
"If anything, a motorglider has a performance disadvantage compared to a motorless, because the ballast choices are limited. It is operationally more complicated during a landout, as everything the "purist" must consider has to be considered, along with deploying and starting an engine. Abandoning further cross country flight has to be done earlier and higher, a disadvantage."
All that is true, and I think in a competition the motorglider therefore has a net disadvantage, and more so for a self-launcher with its higher minimum wing loading. On the other hand, for what I might call the relaxed leisure pilot, motorglider pilots at my club tend to attempt flights further away from home or in more dubious conditions than pilots of pure gliders - because for a relaxed leisure flight pilots are less keen to risk a landout far from home. I accept that there must be pilots with enthusiastic crews who are more bold, but I don't know them!

Most of the pilots at my club who now fly motorgliders were being rude about motorglider pilots 20 years ago. But virtually everyone who has bought a new glider in the last 10 years has bought it with an engine, whether internal combustion, jet or electric.

Both in my club and on the UK BGA Ladder there is a trophy for the best result in a 'non MOP' glider.


Just a sort of relevant anecdote: Was flying a contest at Uvalde where the task area has both flat land and mountains. One day a MAT task was called. It was almost totally blue over the flat ground but cu's were popping in the mountains. The motorgliders pretty much all went into the mountains to fly their extra turns. The non-motors stayed in the flats. Guess who had the better day.
  #24  
Old April 13th 21, 03:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

Anger? Personal attacks? Not from me...I only observe. But the same couple of people start thread after thread on this subject, and it does get tiresome. I wish Old Bob would fly a few thousand miles crosscountry in a motorglider, then report back on the experience. We could then discuss the pros and cons intelligently.

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 12:19:12 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 12:47:05 PM UTC-4, Guy Acheson wrote:
Sounds like it is time to end this conversation.
Why does it always end up with personal attacks?

Guy, don't worry I have thick skin, Fitch is just being Fitch. COVID has brought out all the anger in these motorglider pilots, hopefully they will get all their vaccinations soon.

  #25  
Old April 13th 21, 01:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 10:29:16 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Anger? Personal attacks? Not from me...I only observe. But the same couple of people start thread after thread on this subject, and it does get tiresome. I wish Old Bob would fly a few thousand miles crosscountry in a motorglider, then report back on the experience. We could then discuss the pros and cons intelligently.


Just might want to review your post a bit more carefully, the old "Who Not Me", doesn't seem to apply. Now about that motorglider, Old Bob has flown quiet a bit in my lifetime, been places in my pure glider that most would never go, so experience is something that I am not lacking. I get a kick out of the motorglider guys and gals defending their stance on motorglider vs purist. So, Fitch, here is a special invitation to you to come on down to Vero Beach, join us in our 2022 Soaring Safari and fly among the purist. Old Bob





On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 12:19:12 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 12:47:05 PM UTC-4, Guy Acheson wrote:
Sounds like it is time to end this conversation.
Why does it always end up with personal attacks?

Guy, don't worry I have thick skin, Fitch is just being Fitch. COVID has brought out all the anger in these motorglider pilots, hopefully they will get all their vaccinations soon.

  #26  
Old April 13th 21, 02:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

wrote on 4/13/2021 5:11 AM:
On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 10:29:16 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Anger? Personal attacks? Not from me...I only observe. But the same couple of people start thread after thread on this subject, and it does get tiresome. I wish Old Bob would fly a few thousand miles crosscountry in a motorglider, then report back on the experience. We could then discuss the pros and cons intelligently.


Just might want to review your post a bit more carefully, the old "Who Not Me", doesn't seem to apply. Now about that motorglider, Old Bob has flown quiet a bit in my lifetime, been places in my pure glider that most would never go, so experience is something that I am not lacking. I get a kick out of the motorglider guys and gals defending their stance on motorglider vs purist. So, Fitch, here is a special invitation to you to come on down to Vero Beach, join us in our 2022 Soaring Safari and fly among the purist. Old Bob

The "stance" of the pilots I know, motorized or not, is "You have a glider, I have a glider,
let's go fly!" No one seems care much about the make, model, or launch method. The US contest
rules don't distinguish between them, the SSA doesn't have separate record classes for them, so
why do you manufacture division, when most of us don't care, and are just happy to see someone
show up at the airport and fly with us?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #27  
Old April 13th 21, 02:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

BobWa43 wrote on 4/11/2021 3:00 PM:
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 5:38:41 PM UTC-4, BobWa43 wrote:
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 at 11:17:08 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
It would make more sense to stratify OLC results on glider price, than motor/no motor. Dinging a guy with a Pik20E compared to a JS1 is plain silly. A separate class or handicap for motorgliders is either a wealth or convenience tax - not a performance tax. And certainly not a testosterone measure. Probably, anyone who has to get on a public forum and boast of testosterone levels, is lacking same.

....
should compete against motor gliders on OLC.

I had flown 2000 hours in unpowered sailplanes when I switched to a
motorglider, and I did not feel I had a huge psychological advantage.
And when I fly at the Parowan motorglider event each year, somehow my
"huge psychological advantage" isn't enough to keep pilots like Rami
Yanetz and Thorsten Streple from clobbering me on the OLC! There is some
advantage, but it's not huge, or even big.

So, of all the factors that go into an OLC score, why do you focus only
on the motor? The place has a much larger effect, I think. Who has the
greater advantage: the sustainer pilot launching from Seminole lake, or
the pilot launching from Ridge Soaring on a good ridge day? Or a pilot
in South Africa?

At Dan "When you start the engine the flight is over" true, but as the man in the earlier referenced video said most times you don't have to start the engine. You get to take the chance on whether there will be lift under that distant cloud with no real penalty if there isn't. If that is not a great advantage, I don't what is. If you would agree to disable the engine after take off then it would be a level playing field. It currently is not. Why do motor glider pilots resist the idea of a separate competition group?


The "penalty" is the scoring of the flight ends when the motor starts. If you want to be
competitive, you avoid that risk; if you are flying recreationally, maybe you take the risk
because you don't care about the score.

I'm having trouble understanding your concerns, because these issues haven been worked on (at
least in the US) for at least the 25 years I've owned a motorglider, and the current rules
reflect the consensus of pilots flying competitions, whether it's Regionals, Nationals, or even
SSA records. The OLC doesn't have separate classes, either. There doesn't seem to be any need
to "resist the idea of a separate competition group", because I'm not aware of any formal (or
informal, either) attempts to change the competition classes into motor/non-motor.

We might be able to respond better to your comments if we knew what's driving this discontent
with the current situation: is it being beaten by motorized gliders in Regional and National
contests? A low ranking on the OLC because of all the motorgliders that scored better than you?
Or something else entirely?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #28  
Old April 13th 21, 04:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

Thank you for confirming your inexperience with motorglider operation, and your ignorance of them. People are often afraid of things they don't understand.

You might want to review my post and point out specifically the "anger and personal attacks". All I said was you were ignorant of motorglider operations, which you admit. That isn't personal attack, just a fact, which you could easily correct if you chose.

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 5:11:09 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 10:29:16 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Anger? Personal attacks? Not from me...I only observe. But the same couple of people start thread after thread on this subject, and it does get tiresome. I wish Old Bob would fly a few thousand miles crosscountry in a motorglider, then report back on the experience. We could then discuss the pros and cons intelligently.

Just might want to review your post a bit more carefully, the old "Who Not Me", doesn't seem to apply. Now about that motorglider, Old Bob has flown quiet a bit in my lifetime, been places in my pure glider that most would never go, so experience is something that I am not lacking. I get a kick out of the motorglider guys and gals defending their stance on motorglider vs purist. So, Fitch, here is a special invitation to you to come on down to Vero Beach, join us in our 2022 Soaring Safari and fly among the purist. Old Bob
On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 12:19:12 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 12:47:05 PM UTC-4, Guy Acheson wrote:
Sounds like it is time to end this conversation.
Why does it always end up with personal attacks?
Guy, don't worry I have thick skin, Fitch is just being Fitch. COVID has brought out all the anger in these motorglider pilots, hopefully they will get all their vaccinations soon.

  #29  
Old April 13th 21, 04:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

Probably the motorgliders had a better day THAT day. But what if one
had crashed in the mountains (possibly fatally) because his engine
wouldn't start?

The engine is a double edged sword. Use it well and it will be a great
benefit to your soaring experience. Rely on it too heavily and it will
rise up and bite thine ass.

Dan
5J

On 4/12/21 7:39 PM, Wallace Berry wrote:
ust a sort of relevant anecdote: Was flying a contest at Uvalde where the task area has both flat land and mountains. One day a MAT task was called. It was almost totally blue over the flat ground but cu's were popping in the mountains. The motorgliders pretty much all went into the mountains to fly their extra turns. The non-motors stayed in the flats. Guess who had the better day.

  #30  
Old April 13th 21, 07:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Wallace Berry[_2_]
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Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 10:45:17 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
Probably the motorgliders had a better day THAT day. But what if one
had crashed in the mountains (possibly fatally) because his engine
wouldn't start?

The engine is a double edged sword. Use it well and it will be a great
benefit to your soaring experience. Rely on it too heavily and it will
rise up and bite thine ass.

Dan
5J
On 4/12/21 7:39 PM, Wallace Berry wrote:
Just a sort of relevant anecdote: Was flying a contest at Uvalde where the task area has both flat land and mountains. One day a MAT task was called. It was almost totally blue over the flat ground but cu's were popping in the mountains. The motorgliders pretty much all went into the mountains to fly their extra turns. The non-motors stayed in the flats. Guess who had the better day.


Yes, I fully understand the risks depending on the MOP. Has happened to a number of people I know with varying consequences from complete destruction of the glider with severe personal injury, to last-minute-last-ditch ground loop landings in brushy pea patches, to normal off-field landings. My point is: In that competition situation, it was less risky for the motorgliders to go up into the hills than it was for the pure gliders. So much so that the pure gliders just didn't go there. The motorgliders gained a distinct competitive advantage. I am not a particularly serious race guy, so doesn't bother me much. I do get a bit tired of the "motorgliders have no competitive advantage in racing" refrain. Would I penalize motorgliders or banish them back to a motorglider class? Heavens, no. We are having enough problems getting contests to fill up as it is. Besides, the technological race going on between IC, electric, and jet MOP is interesting. Before I understood some of the tech problems, I even made serious inquiries into having my glider modified with electric propulsion.
 




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