Why don't voice radio communications use FM?

Mxsmanic wrote:
Thomas Borchert writes:
snip


What's simulation got to do with flying?

They both involve many of the same skills, perceptions, and
impressions.

Um, no they don't.

And how can you even make such an assessment if you've never flown?

Whatever. I'm done with you. I can only hope everyone else gives up as
well.

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 19:44:30 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Roger (K8RI) writes:

That is because most of us are used to tactile feed back.

No, it's because some simulators are so realistic that one forgets
that it's just a simulation. This is most common with full-motion
simulators, but motion is not necessarily required.

Well, two things here. As Emily said, the problem is spatial
disorientation. Nearly all of us get it and having flown even several
thousand hours does not make you immune to it. Those hours do help
acclimate you to it which allows you to deal with it is a safe and
timely manner. Actually spatial disorientation is with us constantly
and the motion is far more important when flying IFR than VFR.

As to the realism. I've had quite a few sims over the years including
two right now that could be used for training IF I had an instructor
and the instructor's console. Even though the publishers have gone to
great lengths to make it to quote MS "As real as it gets", it is still
a long way from feeling real.

You don't get flicker vertigo, or the leans, or even a false horizon
in a sim and those are with us on a day-to-day basis IRL. Make a 360
degree turn to the left and straighten out. The body will immediately
see this as a left turn followed by a right turn and that is a normal
reaction. It *should* do that. Even a slight bank is felt as a turn.
Without visual clues (looking out the window) the body becomes acutely
aware of these sensations. For many pilots it takes many hours before
they can ignore that feeling and follow the instruments. Some never
reach the point of safely handeling them.

Actually you can do the same while simming with three large screens so
you have all the visual cues and no physical. Eyes and sense of
balance don't agree...instant queasy.

From what I've read, queasiness sets in from a variety of causes and
the exact mechanism isn't known. I've never been queasy in

"Primarily" air sickness comes from the mind getting confused due to
conflicting inputs between the eyes and the other senses and
particularly the sense of balance. Some forms are understood. It's
more of a "not all causes of motion sickness are understood" or why
some people are far more sensitive than others.

Spatial disorientation exists across a wide range from a slight
turning sensation to full blown vertigo. The leans which has been
mentioned as being quite common and experienced by most pilots can be
induced from simple variations in light intensity to varying
accelerations through turbulence or just making turns.

Every one should experience the FAA's "vertigo chair". You can do the
same thing in an office chair, but you need a couple of good size
helpers to catch you for safety.

The "vertigo chair" is elegant in its simplicity.

The victim..er subject sets in the chair and is blindfolded. The
subject is to point in the direction they think they are turning. At
this point helpers start turning the chair. The subject immediately
points in the proper direction. The chair is "spun up" to a reasonable
rate, but not what I'd call fast. As the spin reaches a steady state
the subject will indicate the chair is slowing, stopped, and then
rotating in the opposite direction. If you slow the chair they will
indicate it is speeding up in the opposite direction.

The interesting part comes when you hold the steady state long enough
for them to indicate the chair is now stopped. Now comes the need for
those helpers. The chair is stopped quickly and the subject will go
over the arm of the chair even though they'd do nothing more than lean
a little were they not blindfolded. This was the reason for the
helpers. The keep the subject from getting hurt.

simulations, because the scenery just isn't moving fast enough (and if

Unfortunately it raises the cost considerably, but if you go the route
of multiple monitors with 3 wide screens being best to simulate IRL
VFR your visual senses are properly stimulated. You will find, among
other things due to the added visual realism, you will lean in the
turns and you will feel a sense of light headedness with a push over
after a climb.

it were, that would probably be a bad sign). Playing Doom has
nauseated me on a number of occasions, though, and watching _The Blair
Witch Project_ did the same.

Doom is just fast paced. The Witch Project is similar to flicker
vertigo. Fast switching between scenes and erratic camera motion
produce just too much changing information for the brain to process in
a logical manner, or even keep up. That logical manner is one key
part. The subconscious will always try to make sense out of things
and make order out of disorder. When there is no logical sense, or
order to the input the subconscious will still try to turn that input
into a logical order. If it can't it'll go into overload and nearly
every one can reach the point of overload sooner or later.
Instrument students just starting out tend to be on the sooner
side...*much* sooner:-))

Presumably if you're flying the plane it greatly diminishes the
chances of motion sickness. I think it's the ability to understand

To some it do and some it don't. It does for me as I do not ride well.
I can do basic aerobatics with little problem although its been quite
a while. OTOH riding with some one practicing their basic PPL
maneuvers such as steep turns, S-turns, turns around a point, and
stalls can get me a bit queasy in a hurry
..
the movement that is more important than the ability to feel it; that
is, if the movement you see or feel corresponds to something your
brain can figure out, you won't get sick.

I believe that to be true to at least some extent for some of us. I've
been on a commercial flight where it was so rough there were only
about 10 of us who didn't get sick. The guy beside me was reading a
news paper until it got so rough he couldn't keep his place. It didn't
seem to bother him a bit. Man, but I was glad he was the one sitting
next to me and not someone with their head in a bag.

The point is that it's the motion and learning to ignore normal body
reactions in addition to the technical parts that makes instrument
flying difficult. Sims are very good for the technical part, but much
of the reality of real world flight is missing from the best of them.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Whatever. I'm done with you. I can only hope everyone else gives up as
well.

I had originally consigned the subject line to my kill filters. This
afternoon I was clearing out obsolete filters and came across this.

This has got to have set some sort of record for troll feeding!!

Mxsmanic,

Just for your information, since you mentioned the cost of flying in
another post as well: The certificate will cost you something like 4000
or 5000 dollars spread over 6 months or a year. Does spending that kind
of money over that period of time require wealth and retirement?

Yes.


Ok. You got a car? House? Air Condition? PC? All require similar amounts of
money. So you gotta be wealthy.

It would help if at least sometimes you could give the impression to
understand you're wrong. There are plenty of pilots that are anything but
wealthy. They just set their spending priorities different from yours.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Mxsmanic,

But I _like_ the response of a 737.


Uhm, you don't know it.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 19:52:40 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Roger (K8RI) writes:

I fly high performance. I've let a lot of other pilots fly the Deb.
It's a rare pilot who has been flying fixed gear planes that wont soon
have the Deb doing 2Gs out of the bottom and zero over the top in a
PIO. They are used to looking at the VSI. That doesn't work in
slippery airplanes. More than one has had me saying to my self: I will
not get sick in my own airplane... I..will.. not...get ... sick...
in... my ... own airrrr...plane....

What _do_ you do if you get sick, especially if you are flying on your
own?

You get sick and fly the airplane. My second time in actual which was
bringing the Deb home from Muncie IN. We were in building storms that
hadn't quite turned into thunderstorms...yet. a number of planes were
reporting severe turbulence (bad enough ATC had the altitude alarms
turned off) and torrential rain. At 9000 we were just catching the
bottoms of the clear air spaces between the cumulus for a few seconds
at a time. For an hour and 8 minutes we were anything except straight
and level. Now why would I remember something like that down to the
minute? :-)) I had vertigo so bad I had to use my finger to point to
each instrument, but it was so rough I kept missing. Then I'd set
there trying to remember which instrument I'd been after. GAWD but I
was sick. My instructor just sat over on the right side with an
occasional finger thump on the yoke to remind me to go up, down,
right, or left. His comment after the flight was the same as your
question.

After about 15 minutes the nausea went away to be replaced by the most
GAWD AFFUL head ache I can remember. An hour and 8 minutes after
entering the crap we popped out the side of a bigggg cumulus with
nothing but clear sky ahead. I turned around and looked up, and up,
and up, then scrunched down in the seat so I could look up even
farther. My remark: "We just came out of that!" Instructor's bored
sounding remark: "Sorta looks that way."

Are there instruments that indicate the direction and magnitude of net
accelerations in the aircraft, so that you can visually see if you are
holding 1 G or more in a loop?

Most aerobatic aircraft have a G meter which indicates negative and
positive G but only in the vertical axis of the airplane. Typically
you use the G meter for some maneuver entry forces and to keep from
breaking in the airplane.


Anyway, these accelerations are another reason why I'm not too keen on
flying for real. Some are pleasant enough, such as standard movements
on take-off, but bouncing around in turbulence or certain unexpected
movements of the aircraft are quite unpleasant. I've only been queasy
once on a commercial aircraft, but that was mainly because I was very
tired but could not sleep (as a passenger, obviously). The statistics
I've seen show that less than 0.1% of passengers experience motion
sickness; I don't know what the figure is for pilots.

I think they were all on the one flight I took. :-)) It was the 6:30
AM flight out of Denver for Cleveland (737). We hit the jet stream
interface right after breakfast. There were only a couple of empty
seats. Seams like it was only one and all but about 10 of us got sick.


Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be useful to have a drug that
eliminates all sense of motion for instrument flying. That way you
could watch your instruments without being influenced by what your
semicircular canals are saying.

As a pilot you aren't even allowed to take Dramamine. Which after
flying home from Marysville KS my wife marked "That Dramamine is
wonderful stuff!". We took off into winds of 30 G 50 and had over a
100 knot tail wind at 500 feet.RNAV said we were moving 250 but that
was from a VOR about 30 degrees to our left.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Are there instruments that indicate the direction and magnitude of net
accelerations in the aircraft, so that you can visually see if you are
holding 1 G or more in a loop?


Except to do a symmetrical loop (that is a loop with a more or less
constant radius) the pilot doesn't hold 1G throughout the manuever.

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 08:47:16 -0500, Emily
wrote:

Thomas Borchert wrote:
Mxsmanic,

You must be independently wealthy and retired if you can actually
afford to fly in real life.


Just for your information, since you mentioned the cost of flying in
another post as well: The certificate will cost you something like 4000
or 5000 dollars spread over 6 months or a year. Does spending that kind
of money over that period of time require wealth and retirement? No, it
requires dedication. Have that?

Just think, he could get rid of his internet access and fly about a half
hour to an hour a month. Worth it to me!

When I had ISDN and then DSL my Internet bill would have paid for a
lot more flying than that and in a high performance retract to boot!
:-)) OTOH there is a reason I'm flying a 46 year old (as of tomorrow)
airplane. Airworthiness certificate is 9/11/59. TT is still less than
4,000 hours

When I was in college studying CS at age 47 to 50 my phone bill was
close to $300 a month just so I could get my home work done and I
wasn't even on the Internet then although I used to get into the
boards at different colleges.



Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Roger (K8RI) writes:

I like something a bit more responsive than a 737:-))
http://www.rogerhalstead.com/833R/833R_frame.htm

But I _like_ the response of a 737.

You haven't a clue as to how a 737 or anything else for that matter
responds.

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Mxsmanic,

Just for your information, since you mentioned the cost of flying in
another post as well: The certificate will cost you something like 4000
or 5000 dollars spread over 6 months or a year. Does spending that kind
of money over that period of time require wealth and retirement?

Yes.


Ok. You got a car? House? Air Condition? PC? All require similar amounts
of
money. So you gotta be wealthy.

Tricycle is maybe more like it.

It would help if at least sometimes you could give the impression to
understand you're wrong. There are plenty of pilots that are anything but
wealthy. They just set their spending priorities different from yours.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)