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#21
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote If the commonwealth has capitulated why arent you launching attacks from Canada ? I'm assuming the commonwealth is neutral, like Vichy France.. Assuming they can do 25 to 30 knots for 10 hours or so and the V-1s can fly about 250 miles, they could presumably approach during daylight, launch at dusk, and retreat, thus ensuring that they're out of range of effective land-based air throughout. Hardly. Virtually any land based twin or 4 engined bombers could reach them with escort from P-38's. The catalina's would pick them up a long way out. The operative word is "effective". All they have to worry about is submarines, so I figure one carries a normal air group and the other the V-1s. Ideally, if a V-1 could be fired without reconfiguring the whole flight deck, they both would. I'd imagine you could flat-pack a V-1 quite small. Why dont they have to wonder about the US Atlantic fleet ? How many CVs did it consist of? Not much else is going to catch them. |
#22
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In article m,
"The Blue Max" writes: "Keith Willshaw" wrote If the commonwealth has capitulated why arent you launching attacks from Canada ? I'm assuming the commonwealth is neutral, like Vichy France.. Assuming they can do 25 to 30 knots for 10 hours or so and the V-1s can fly about 250 miles, they could presumably approach during daylight, launch at dusk, and retreat, thus ensuring that they're out of range of effective land-based air throughout. Hardly. Virtually any land based twin or 4 engined bombers could reach them with escort from P-38's. The catalina's would pick them up a long way out. The operative word is "effective". All they have to worry about is submarines, so I figure one carries a normal air group and the other the V-1s. Ideally, if a V-1 could be fired without reconfiguring the whole flight deck, they both would. I'd imagine you could flat-pack a V-1 quite small. Why dont they have to wonder about the US Atlantic fleet ? How many CVs did it consist of? Not much else is going to catch them. In late '43-'44, a bucketload, if you're willing to count CVEs. There were quite a few ASW Hunter-killer groups that were all over teh Atlantic. Not 30 kt ships, but perfectly capable of carrying and launching strike aircraft. A typical CVE airgroup was a Squadron of FM-2s, and a Squadron of TBMs, about 35 aircraft in all. They did carry weapons for Anti-ship as well as Anti-sub combat, and had their own Destroer Flotilla attached. V-1s, BTW, didn't make their first operational shots until mid '44. -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster |
#23
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"William Hughes" wrote in message ... On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:23:44 GMT, in rec.aviation.military "The Blue Max" wrote: "Keith Willshaw" wrote Why dont they have to wonder about the US Atlantic fleet ? How many CVs did it consist of? Not much else is going to catch them. During WWII, Atlantic Fleet only had one full time fleet carrier (sort of) - CV-4 RANGER. CV-5 YORKTOWN moved to the Pacific in December '41. CV-7 WASP was there until early 1942, when she transferred to the Pacific. The rest of the U.S. carrier presence in the Atlantic consisted primarily of the SANGAMON and BOGUE class escort carriers, with a few CASABLANCA and COMMENCEMENT BAY class ships. That's what I figured. The USN didn't acquire really huge numbers of CVs till late 43 / early 44 IIRC, which is why the appearance of two in the Atlantic would have been such a pain. In fact Germany contemplated 9 CVx at various times, but if they'd actually built them I suspect the USN would have noticed and done something about it... -- Et qui rit des cures d'Oc? De Meuse raines, houp! de cloques. De quelles loques ce turqe coin. Et ne d'anes ni rennes, Ecuries des cures d'Oc. |
#24
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#25
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"The Blue Max" wrote in message s.com... "Keith Willshaw" wrote If the commonwealth has capitulated why arent you launching attacks from Canada ? I'm assuming the commonwealth is neutral, like Vichy France.. Assuming they can do 25 to 30 knots for 10 hours or so and the V-1s can fly about 250 miles, they could presumably approach during daylight, launch at dusk, and retreat, thus ensuring that they're out of range of effective land-based air throughout. Hardly. Virtually any land based twin or 4 engined bombers could reach them with escort from P-38's. The catalina's would pick them up a long way out. The operative word is "effective". B-25's were very effective in the Solomons All they have to worry about is submarines, so I figure one carries a normal air group and the other the V-1s. Ideally, if a V-1 could be fired without reconfiguring the whole flight deck, they both would. I'd imagine you could flat-pack a V-1 quite small. Why dont they have to wonder about the US Atlantic fleet ? How many CVs did it consist of? Not much else is going to catch them. The Ranger, Yorktown and Wasp as of Dec 7 1941 Keith |
#26
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"The Blue Max" wrote in message s.com... "William Hughes" wrote in message ... On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:23:44 GMT, in rec.aviation.military "The Blue Max" wrote: "Keith Willshaw" wrote Why dont they have to wonder about the US Atlantic fleet ? How many CVs did it consist of? Not much else is going to catch them. During WWII, Atlantic Fleet only had one full time fleet carrier (sort of) - CV-4 RANGER. CV-5 YORKTOWN moved to the Pacific in December '41. CV-7 WASP was there until early 1942, when she transferred to the Pacific. The rest of the U.S. carrier presence in the Atlantic consisted primarily of the SANGAMON and BOGUE class escort carriers, with a few CASABLANCA and COMMENCEMENT BAY class ships. That's what I figured. The USN didn't acquire really huge numbers of CVs till late 43 / early 44 IIRC, which is why the appearance of two in the Atlantic would have been such a pain. You are making several false assumptions here, the biggest of these is that the USN would have the same dispositions in your fantasy world as in real life. It emphatically would not, as its history show it reacts to the threats posed. In 1941 because the Kriegsmarine was largely contained it was able to strip many units from the Atlantic fleet to bolster the Pacific, indeed even the Brtish carrier Victorious was temporarily attached to the Pacific carrier force in 1942. Keith In fact Germany contemplated 9 CVx at various times, but if they'd actually built them I suspect the USN would have noticed and done something about it... -- Et qui rit des cures d'Oc? De Meuse raines, houp! de cloques. De quelles loques ce turqe coin. Et ne d'anes ni rennes, Ecuries des cures d'Oc. |
#27
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"Peter Stickney" wrote In late '43-'44, a bucketload, if you're willing to count CVEs. There were quite a few ASW Hunter-killer groups that were all over teh Atlantic. Presumably in view of the U-boat campaign, which I have here assumed isn't happening. |
#28
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"The Blue Max" wrote in message s.com... "Keith Willshaw" wrote The operative word is "effective". B-25's were very effective in the Solomons Not at 400 miles against CVs, they weren't. 400 miles is beyond the range of a V-1, at 200 miles they'd be very effective. Consider the Battle of the Bismarck Sea of early March 1943. USAAF B-17's and B-25s along with Australian Beauforts and Beaufighters took part in coordinated and repeated attacks on a Japanese convoy headed from Rabaul to reinforce their forces based at Lae, with P-38s and P-40s flying top cover. Out of the original convoy of eight destroyers and eight cargo vessels that had departed Rabaul, all the transports and four of the destroyers were sunk or beached. How many CVs did it consist of? Not much else is going to catch them. The Ranger, Yorktown and Wasp as of Dec 7 1941 2 years earlier than I'm thinking. They didnt evaporate in the meantime and a **** load of CVE's were built in the meantime. I'm not suggesting this woudl have happened. I'm just interested in what it would have taken to ensure any such raid would fail. My guess is a minimum of 6 CVs plus a lot of land-based air, which would be a useful deduction from the PTO from the IJN's perspective. V-1s make more sense than a conventional raid because your CVs don't have to loiter waiting for the strike force to return. They just launch and retreat. Any hits on New York get you lots of victory points. And almost certainly lose both carriers. The Doolittle raid was possible because the Japanese didnt have effective Ocean surveillance aircraft equipped with radar. The USA did have such assets in 1943, moreover they had bases in Iceland and Greenland. Keith |
#29
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote
400 miles is beyond the range of a V-1, The V-1's range was presumably somewhat fungible depending on how far from the target it started. http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraf...fo/vi_info.htm suggests that the empty weight was 815kg, the warhead was 850kg, and the total laden weight was 2180kg. I am assuming that the 515kg difference between the empty and warhead-inclusive weights was the fuel; and that the standard as-used flying bomb starts out fully-fuelled and flies till empty. Keeping things nice and simple, that 515kg of fuel was enough to fly an average weight of 1923 kg (mean of launch and 'landing' weights) about 200 miles, historically. If the warhead can be halved in weight and the saving applied to increase the fuel load, this roughly doubles the weapon's range (unless the fuel is a lot bulkier than the HE warhead). I make this assumption because if 515kg of fuel would fly 1923kg 200 miles, 940kg of fuel should fly 1710kgs 400 miles because you have ~83% more fuel and ~11% less weight. 50 or so 425kg warheads arriving in Manhattan are still going to royally **** off US public opinion. Assuming the 2 CVs can do 25 knots in north Atlantic weather for 10 to 12 hours without mishap, and that the night lasts that long, then at dusk (1800 say) they'd be 500 miles from NY. They advance at flank speed until 2200, at which point they're in range. They launch the V-1s pronto and reverse course just as the first ones are landing. The search planes start looking for them ASAP but they have no realistic chance of picking them up until dawn. By then the retreating CVs are 500 miles away again. Any outbound strike from the US mainland is looking at a tail chase. Even if the PBY (or whatever) spots them at daybreak, doesn't get shot down, and vectors (eg) B25s directly onto them, the bombers are only going to overhaul them at a net 200 knots. This means a 2.5 hour pursuit, i.e. the target will be probably 600 miles away even if everything goes exactly right for the pursuers. Even then, I'd be really surprised if 2 CVs would be much troubled by whatever a B-25 could deliver at 600 miles; or even 400 miles, assuming standard-range V-1s. at 200 miles they'd be very effective. Consider the Battle of the Bismarck Sea of early March 1943. I'm aware of the Bismarck Sea. I see little in common between that action, against a 9-knot convoy with no organic air cover in the weather, visibility, and sea state conditions of the PTO, with the above. They didnt evaporate in the meantime and a **** load of CVE's were built in the meantime. In the original timeline, yes. I'm assuming that Germany reaches terms with Britain in 1940. The latter withdraws from Iceland as there's no U-boat campaign, and German-occupied Denmark would probably insist. Germany then defeats Russia and has no need to suspend work on her 2 CVs, which have until 1943 or 1944 to work up in the Baltic. The V-1 programme proceeds unhindered by Allied bombing and is ready by late 1943. At this point the IJN is in need of a diversion to buy time. Germany provides this via the above. No U-boat campaign and thus no need to deploy or even build CVEs to the Atlantic. Obviosuly Germany would be stupid to attack the USA, but doing it per the above is arguably less stupid than what she actually did, i.e. declare war while still fighting the Commonwealth and USSR. -- Et qui rit des cures d'Oc? De Meuse raines, houp! de cloques. De quelles loques ce turqe coin. Et ne d'anes ni rennes, Ecuries des cures d'Oc. |
#30
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Allied bombings had little to do with delays in getting V-1s
operational, so presuming an early debut of them is unrealistic. (same thing with jets, buggy and immature technology combined with limits in the industrial base kept them delayed) Then, the things were terribly inaccurate. At their extreme range, hitting greater New York, even less Manhattan, would have been iffy. Any attack would have been a dramatic propaganda blow, but serve no useful military purpose. And finally, you would not need a carrier to launch them. Any moderate size ship could be fitted with simple fold out launch rails, they would only need to extend about 15 ft away from the hull and only need to handle a couple of tons, a simple installation. But by '43/'44, the Atlantic was an Allied lake and any German surface types wouldn't have a chance. I love "what if" scenarios, but let's keep a little realism to it. |
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