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#61
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Thoughts on crash/article in Soaring?
Well said, Don.
Don Johnstone wrote: Having read the articles I asked myself two questions 1 Could it happen to me? 2 Have I learned from it? Despite my 10000 launches and 1300 hrs the answer to both questions is a resounding yes. snip The accident investigation files are filled with cases where bad things have happened to otherwise good pilots. The articles also highlight possible deficiencies in teaching and supervision and it is right that these should be addressed. I would urge everyone to read the articles carefully. The entire thread contains many assertions and inferences that do not appear to have really come from the articles -- I re-read them both twice to assure myself that I had not missed anything. For example, I did not detect he'd "blamed his training" for the accident. He did point out that his initial training 30 years ago was only to the minimum required to "pass," but not sufficient for the type of soaring Jim would ultimately choose to enjoy. Who among us were a soaring "black belt" when we endeavored on our first solo? Our first check-ride? Our first cross country? Our first diamond? With two diamonds in a 1-26, I know I have not yet "mastered" soaring, and I keep the phrase "it could happen to me" in the forefront to help me keep my guard up. Jim pointed out that he sought more extensive training prior to flying high performance gliders. So you've got a freshly minted mult-engine pilots' license -- do you really think the insurance company will let you immediately jump into the left seat of a 747? Training is life long. We should know better and remember that what we carry are licenses to learn. My glider ticket is dated more than 10 years ago, and I still seek instruction, and know that there are things I'm not (yet) qualified to do with an aircraft. Jim was lucky, he was able to write about his experience. Reading his articles might just save YOUR life one day. What I also commend Jim for showing is that he has not given up the sport. He continues to volunteer his time and efforts to improve our sport. In a very public way, he's shared private thoughts, experiences and pains, and provided excellent examples of how we can return to the cockpit if it does happen to us. He really showed us how to "get back in the saddle," something I don't recall in ANY of my training, power, glider, engineering... Again, thank you Jim. Thank you Don. And thank you RAS. |
#62
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Thoughts on crash/article in Soaring?
MS wrote: Another "mature" response by Chuck. You don't like my opinion, so you insult me. I see that you criticize Mr. Griswold but do not address the fact that I have been unable to find you. Unless you are going to be honest with us, quit bullying, and open your closed little mind, just shut up. I look forward to your reply to my letter--if it does not come back undeliverable and unknown like my email to you did several times. Or are you just in such a need for attention that you are willing to make an idiot of yourself just so people will feel compelled to address you. Just shut up. |
#63
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Jousting with windmills?
There is a lot of talent being wasted in this thread, I'd rather like
to hear about other situations and what pilots did to recover from a potentially bad situation. Maybe you can all simply agree to disagree with the 1 primary opposing opinion on this and let the thread die. Im sure we are all very aware of how EACH of us feels about it! Nuff-Said....lets move on. I could use some mentoring on preparing for my first cross-country flights and what sort of things one commonly has to deal/work with in southern california. I'd eventually like to get into 15m & club class competitions.....how do I best get there? Ray |
#64
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Jousting with windmills?
compelling reading regarding XC flights
http://www.m-asa.org/currconv.pdf \ jb92563 wrote: There is a lot of talent being wasted in this thread, I'd rather like to hear about other situations and what pilots did to recover from a potentially bad situation. Maybe you can all simply agree to disagree with the 1 primary opposing opinion on this and let the thread die. Im sure we are all very aware of how EACH of us feels about it! Nuff-Said....lets move on. I could use some mentoring on preparing for my first cross-country flights and what sort of things one commonly has to deal/work with in southern california. I'd eventually like to get into 15m & club class competitions.....how do I best get there? Ray |
#65
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Jousting with windmills?
jb92563 wrote:
There is a lot of talent being wasted in this thread, I'd rather like to hear about other situations and what pilots did to recover from a potentially bad situation. Maybe you can all simply agree to disagree with the 1 primary opposing opinion on this and let the thread die. Im sure we are all very aware of how EACH of us feels about it! Nuff-Said....lets move on. I could use some mentoring on preparing for my first cross-country flights and what sort of things one commonly has to deal/work with in southern california. I'd eventually like to get into 15m & club class competitions.....how do I best get there? Ray Hi Ray, X-Country - Consider participating in the Cross Country Camp at Air Sailing. Pilots from all over the country come. Check out: http://www.airsailing.org/xc_camp2006.htm and get your reservation in for next year. A good way to get into competitions is to work at a contest or crew for an experienced racing pilot. Doesn't have to be a hot shot, but one who is willing to introduce you to all that goes on at a contest. Then go fly a sports class contest were people are friendly and helpful, such as the Spring Avenal contest or the Air Sailing Sports Class contest. Good luck might gorilla |
#66
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Thoughts on crash/article in Soaring?
Our club operated the last 2 weekends at a "mountain" airport in
Darrington Washington. This is a 2500' paved strip at 540 msl. It is aligned with the prevailing winds and is at the end of a long valley. Usually considered by local XC pilots as a land-out field for our mountain excursions; since the airport we usually fly out of was sort of off-limits during the Arlington Airshow, so we just packed up and headed to Darrington for a few weeks. That being said, the first approach I made during our encampment would be an example of "another way to skin a cat" After being in the air for over 4 hours, the first 2 hours duking it out with Ron on Gold mountain in survival flying mode; 1 to 2 knot lift, tight to the ridge and very carefully making decisions regarding 360 turns or not.......then finding valley magic and making huge 360's with flaps all he way down, in the middle of the valley, on auto pilot mode.......it was time to land. Of course now the whole valley is is lift, and we literally had to find sink to help us get down, the air is rowdy, the valley is now a real venturi and the treeline upwind of the airstrip is sending swirly dervishes hurtling towards the runway and providing approaching pilots with a handful of delights we normally don't see at our sedate home airport. So.........to make a long story short, I will admit I made a poor mid field approach; too high and too close to the approach end of the runway. I find that I cannot continue the downwind because Gold mountain would probably fill my canopy with her trees, and the wind is hurtling me along at quite a clip, and it is now time to turn to final.......still way to high..........I turn final, full spoilers, not going to make it.....well.......maybe I could stop at the end of the runway..........maybe.........SOLUTION: do a 360, on the 270 side of the 360 the spoilers come fully out, a slight slip........correcting like crazy to stay alighned with the runway.....and then I am on the ground and rolling out. I stop at the intersection and push off to the ramp with the help of friends. So what........I know a 360 in the approach is not standard practice, but it worked, I flew 5 more times during our encampment there and made perfect standard approaches despite the turbulence and rowdy air. The 360 worked, I'll do it again if needed, but it is not somthing I will use unless the situation calls for it. My bad? I don't think so..........I think those of us that do, do; those of us that think we can, like to talk, or write, excessively about it........ and those of use that can't...........(fill in the blanks) Cheers, Brad 199AK PeterK wrote: Have you ever given any thought that there might be another method besides a forward slip or spoilers?? Or let's just be narrow minded about this. There is always more than one way to skin a cat. And by the way, there is nothing new about the high parasitic drag approach is just you obviously never heard about it. This sure smells like something personal to me as well. (IT actually stinks!) Peter Kovari (and this case,unlike some others I dare spell out my name) "MS" wrote in message ups.com... Nothing personal at all. I guess it's because the absurdity of not being able to land a glider on a 6,000 foot runway using the conventional forward slip or spoilers. I often hear glider pilots over analyze and try to "get to the heart of a deeper problem in order to partially exonerate themselves. "It couldn't be me making several huge lapses in judgement, so it must be my instructors fault for not providing me proper training. My instructors are too conservative. They did not teach me everything I needed to know." The author never stated it that way, but that's what I got out of the article. I am an aviation safety counselor and I once had to counsel an ATP who ran out of fuel on a personal flight. Luckily, it ended without damage to the aircraft or killing him, his wife or his small child. Part of the "punishment" the FAA handed out was for him to give his story at several pilot meetings. He began his story " Hey, if it could happen to me, it could happen to anyone." Although he admitted to some of the error, he was still in denial that ithe series of pilot errors he made could be 100% avoided by him or other people. I see some of the same theme in this article and it really upsets me. I wouldn't have the problem with the article if the author did not blame "conservativism" or his conservative flight training as the real blame for his lack of airmanship, forethought and planning. With spoilers and a slip, I can induce 1,000 ft per minute sink at 60kts which should be sufficient to land on a 6,000 ft runway from 500 ft AGL over the numbers. We practice rope breaks at 200ft AGL in a strong headwind that becomes a strong tailwind once you complete the turn back to the 4,000 runway. We rarely use up more than 3,000 ft to come to a complete stop. The article should have stated the inherent dangers with using a high drag approach, diving at the runway with full spoilers and then making all the adjustments. It's not conservative. It's not stable. It's not needed. MS wrote: There have been few articles in Soaring or subjects on r.a.s. which have generated so much flak and so many "ad hominem" attacks against the author of the articles. It seems that the most virulent ones were sent anonymously or under initials only. Am I missing something here, or is there something personal against Jim Skydell ? The whole point of those two articles was to describe a series of events, and NOT excuse them, so what is the beef ? Cheers, Charles |
#67
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Thoughts on crash/article in Soaring?
Absolutely! Good story, the only problem that might
arise from doing a 360 on final is, if you are the first in a long string of gliders lined up to land. You might throw a lemon into someones plans for a normal landing. I guess land long and get off the RW. Chuck At 04:12 21 July 2006, Brad wrote: Our club operated the last 2 weekends at a 'mountain' airport in Darrington Washington. This is a 2500' paved strip at 540 msl. It is aligned with the prevailing winds and is at the end of a long valley. Usually considered by local XC pilots as a land-out field for our mountain excursions; since the airport we usually fly out of was sort of off-limits during the Arlington Airshow, so we just packed up and headed to Darrington for a few weeks. That being said, the first approach I made during our encampment would be an example of 'another way to skin a cat' After being in the air for over 4 hours, the first 2 hours duking it out with Ron on Gold mountain in survival flying mode; 1 to 2 knot lift, tight to the ridge and very carefully making decisions regarding 360 turns or not.......then finding valley magic and making huge 360's with flaps all he way down, in the middle of the valley, on auto pilot mode.......it was time to land. Of course now the whole valley is is lift, and we literally had to find sink to help us get down, the air is rowdy, the valley is now a real venturi and the treeline upwind of the airstrip is sending swirly dervishes hurtling towards the runway and providing approaching pilots with a handful of delights we normally don't see at our sedate home airport. So.........to make a long story short, I will admit I made a poor mid field approach; too high and too close to the approach end of the runway. I find that I cannot continue the downwind because Gold mountain would probably fill my canopy with her trees, and the wind is hurtling me along at quite a clip, and it is now time to turn to final.......still way to high..........I turn final, full spoilers, not going to make it.....well.......maybe I could stop at the end of the runway..........maybe.........SOLUTION: do a 360, on the 270 side of the 360 the spoilers come fully out, a slight slip........correcti ng like crazy to stay alighned with the runway.....and then I am on the ground and rolling out. I stop at the intersection and push off to the ramp with the help of friends. So what........I know a 360 in the approach is not standard practice, but it worked, I flew 5 more times during our encampment there and made perfect standard approaches despite the turbulence and rowdy air. The 360 worked, I'll do it again if needed, but it is not somthing I will use unless the situation calls for it. My bad? I don't think so..........I think those of us that do, do; those of us that think we can, like to talk, or write, excessively about it........ and those of use that can't...........(fill in the blanks) Cheers, Brad 199AK PeterK wrote: Have you ever given any thought that there might be another method besides a forward slip or spoilers?? Or let's just be narrow minded about this. There is always more than one way to skin a cat. And by the way, there is nothing new about the high parasitic drag approach is just you obviously never heard about it. This sure smells like something personal to me as well. (IT actually stinks!) Peter Kovari (and this case,unlike some others I dare spell out my name) 'MS' wrote in message news: ... Nothing personal at all. I guess it's because the absurdity of not being able to land a glider on a 6,000 foot runway using the conventional forward slip or spoilers. I often hear glider pilots over analyze and try to 'get to the heart of a deeper problem in order to partially exonerate themselves. 'It couldn't be me making several huge lapses in judgement, so it must be my instructors fault for not providing me proper training. My instructors are too conservative. They did not teach me everything I needed to know.' The author never stated it that way, but that's what I got out of the article. I am an aviation safety counselor and I once had to counsel an ATP who ran out of fuel on a personal flight. Luckily, it ended without damage to the aircraft or killing him, his wife or his small child. Part of the 'punishment' the FAA handed out was for him to give his story at several pilot meetings. He began his story ' Hey, if it could happen to me, it could happen to anyone.' Although he admitted to some of the error, he was still in denial that ithe series of pilot errors he made could be 100% avoided by him or other people. I see some of the same theme in this article and it really upsets me. I wouldn't have the problem with the article if the author did not blame 'conservativism' or his conservative flight training as the real blame for his lack of airmanship, forethought and planning. With spoilers and a slip, I can induce 1,000 ft per minute sink at 60kts which should be sufficient to land on a 6,000 ft runway from 500 ft AGL over the numbers. We practice rope breaks at 200ft AGL in a strong headwind that becomes a strong tailwind once you complete the turn back to the 4,000 runway. We rarely use up more than 3,000 ft to come to a complete stop. The article should have stated the inherent dangers with using a high drag approach, diving at the runway with full spoilers and then making all the adjustments. It's not conservative. It's not stable. It's not needed. MS wrote: There have been few articles in Soaring or subjects on r.a.s. which have generated so much flak and so many 'ad hominem' attacks against the author of the articles. It seems that the most virulent ones were sent anonymously or under initials only. Am I missing something here, or is there something personal against Jim Skydell ? The whole point of those two articles was to describe a series of events, and NOT excuse them, so what is the beef ? Cheers, Charles |
#68
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Thoughts on crash.... / Skydivers vs. Gliders
Chuck Griswold wrote:
...the only problem that might arise from doing a 360 on final is, if you are the first in a long string of gliders lined up to land. You might throw a lemon into someones plans for a normal landing. You take the energy you have and you fit it to the space available -- that's gliding. If we expect that the only successful flight is one that looks just like every other flight, we've just made the same error that Skydell has warned us so selflessly against. There are no "normal" landings in unpowered aircraft. They are either successful or unsuccessful, depending on our goals for that particular phase of the flight. We plan and execute to the best of our ability within the bounds of normal good-neighborliness, but first fly our own aircraft safely, whatever happens. Everyone else will do the same. This is beginning to take on a strong relationship to the "Skydivers v Gliders" thread. Everybody needs to be ready for anything at all times, especially around the pattern. It's most interesting at our field where the skydivers land immediately adjacent to the landing strip. By "immediately" I mean the northern edge of our strip is the southern edge of the landing zone. We are happy if they don't actually touch down on the runway, though the only thing I haven't seen yet is a landing on the roof of one of the buildings on the field. Surely that cannot be far off. So far, the jumpers have accomplished only the occasional reduction in their own number, and with no assists, thank God. The jumpers do often cross the runway, even the short final approach area, under canopy, en masse or strung out over a few hundred meters. It can get interesting with several gliders, a dozen jumpers, transient aircraft without a clue, and a single runway. I've always thought recreational jumpers at least a little insane, but watching them mix so freely with both gliders and powered aircraft using the strip, I am convinced its worse than that. Jack |
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