Just wondering.....

I was just wondering if there are any restrictions on the type of
certificates that a sailplane may have for instruction? How about
taking your flight test or bfr? During hanger chat we discussed the use
of a Blanik thats experimental for instruction and rides....just
wondering if a can of worms is going to pop open. Thanks for any
information!

LakLJ

where are you?, ok.. Comcast is a US company
AFAIK, Experimental aircraft cannot be used in a commercial operation for
"Rides for hire" or Commercial Instruction to the general public.
In a club situation, and flying club members for instruction, it should be a
non-issue. Same for the FR or FAA Checkride, as long as the DPE is aware of
the experimental category and he has no problems with it.

I was under the impression that most L-13s were certified in the US in the
standard category.. why is this one Experimental?

BT

wrote in message
ups.com...
I was just wondering if there are any restrictions on the type of
certificates that a sailplane may have for instruction? How about
taking your flight test or bfr? During hanger chat we discussed the use
of a Blanik thats experimental for instruction and rides....just
wondering if a can of worms is going to pop open. Thanks for any
information!

LakLJ

The FAR's have been researched and there's no problem as long as the
experimental is not used 'for hire'. Flight tests are OK if the DPE is
willing.

That said, some DPE's AREN'T willing.

Then there's the liability issue should a solo student come to grief. I
think a good lawyer would argue the student, by virture of being a student,
was not qualified to make a sound judgement as to the risk. Further that
the instructor who signed the student off to solo and the club or business
that employed that instructor, in effect, made the risk judgement for the
student without his imformed consent and are therefore liable
notwithstanding any 'hold harmless' agreement which assumes responsible
behavior on the part of the defendant.

I think all the lawyer would have to do is ask the jury, "Do you think it
was reasonable and responsible that they sent a STUDENT up in an
EXPERIMENTAL GLIDER? The jury pool is certain to have a pretty strong
opinion that experimental aircraft are risky. All the FAR gobbledygook in
the world won't moot that.

Whether or not you agree with the above, I think legal council would advise
before the fact that it's just not a risk worth taking since trainers with
standard airworthiness certificates are available cheap. This is especially
so if the club or business has substantial assets.

Bill Daniels


wrote in message
ups.com...
I was just wondering if there are any restrictions on the type of
certificates that a sailplane may have for instruction? How about
taking your flight test or bfr? During hanger chat we discussed the use
of a Blanik thats experimental for instruction and rides....just
wondering if a can of worms is going to pop open. Thanks for any
information!

LakLJ

BTIZ wrote:
where are you?, ok.. Comcast is a US company
AFAIK, Experimental aircraft cannot be used in a commercial operation for
"Rides for hire" or Commercial Instruction to the general public.

Actually, I believe you may be at least partially wrong about the latter
part. Instruction is not considered to be "flying for hire", so you can
pay a CFI to instruct you in an experimental aircraft. I've also heard
conflicting reports as to whether it is legal to offer to rent or lease
an experimental aircraft on a commercial basis, some FBOs have been
doing it for years...

Thanks guys...this seems to be what we all came up with. Club does not
have "substantial assets". May the discussion continue!

LakLJ

Yes, but you normally can't charge for the experimental aircraft for
rides. However, I believe the someone has an exemption or waiver for
training in the Leza Air Cam.

Several commercial operators have rented experimental single place
gliders.

Section 91.319: Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating
limitations, makes for interesting reading. Since the advent of light
sport aircraft, some of the rules have changed slightly. Paragraph
(e)2 has a termination date of January 31, 2010, for at least some
flight training for compensation or hire in experimental aircraft.

Frank Whiteley

The original question was about an L-13 with an experimental airworthiness
certificate to be used for student training. Renting a single seat
experimental aircraft to a rated pilot is a slightly different matter and is
apparently OK with the FAA and the insurance companies. The presumption is
that a rated pilot can be expected to know the risk.

I have no problems with experimenatl aircraft. I own one and work with a
company that rents a Genesis II with an experimental certificate.

The key problem goes to whether a student pilot can be expected to give
'informed consent' to accept the risks of flying an aircraft with a
experimental certificate. The reading I have is that a student pilot, by
virtue of being a student, cannot. That shifts the liability from the
student PIC to the instructor who 'assigned' the solo task to the student
and to the owners of the aircraft.

This would be especially true where the student is a minor and the adult
guardian, who may have signed a waiver of liability, had no aviation
experience at all and testifies assurances of safety were given.

Instructors face way too much liability now and expecting one to instruct in
a trainer with an experimental airworthiness certificate is intolerable.
I'm sure that if it came to a lawsuit, the words 'student' and 'experimental
glider' would figure prominately.

Bill Daniels


"Frank Whiteley" wrote in message
ups.com...
Yes, but you normally can't charge for the experimental aircraft for
rides. However, I believe the someone has an exemption or waiver for
training in the Leza Air Cam.

Several commercial operators have rented experimental single place
gliders.

Section 91.319: Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating
limitations, makes for interesting reading. Since the advent of light
sport aircraft, some of the rules have changed slightly. Paragraph
(e)2 has a termination date of January 31, 2010, for at least some
flight training for compensation or hire in experimental aircraft.

Frank Whiteley

ahh.. I would think you are correct, if you are the owner or have access to
the experimental aircraft and are paying the CFI to teach flying.

But I'll need to check the regs on the "commercial renting" of experimental
aircraft, or using experimental aircraft in "rides for hire"
BT

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
t...
BTIZ wrote:
where are you?, ok.. Comcast is a US company
AFAIK, Experimental aircraft cannot be used in a commercial operation for
"Rides for hire" or Commercial Instruction to the general public.

Actually, I believe you may be at least partially wrong about the latter
part. Instruction is not considered to be "flying for hire", so you can
pay a CFI to instruct you in an experimental aircraft. I've also heard
conflicting reports as to whether it is legal to offer to rent or lease an
experimental aircraft on a commercial basis, some FBOs have been doing it
for years...