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Splitting Costs of Flying a Club Demo Ride?



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 8th 14, 04:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Splitting Costs of Flying a Club Demo Ride?

Here is the basic scenario:

A non-commercial glider pilot is a member of a glider club. This pilot pays $600 per year to be a part of the club and flies on average only 10 or so hours per year. That of course equates to a cost of $60 per flown hour.

Let's say this glider club member then takes someone interested in gliding on a demo ride for an hour. The tow costs $60.

To stay true to the FAR's so they don't act like a commercial pilot, from what I understand, they are allowed to split the cost of the flight. OK, that is fine. Can they only split the cost of the tow or can the demo passenger pay for the full tow because the pilot is contributing $60 already to be able to make that flight with his club dues?

You can see where I am headed. My presentation about gliding to the local EAA members here last Friday was a raging success! Thanks to all who sent ideas and your own presentations. They were all so very helpful and were used a great deal.

Near the end of the presentation when everyone was feeling the love and seemed excited about soaring, I passed out a club glider demo ride sheet that said they only need to pay for the tow if they were really interested in seeing if soaring was for them. We got 21 pilot sign ups! Many came up after the presentation and were talking excitedly about wanting to try out the sport as they have always thought about it but never had an opportunity. Awesome!

Now the club needs to figure out how to best facilitate actually doing all these flights. I really hope it isn't only the instructors or commercial pilots who can give these rides. They need to stay busy with their current and new students. I see this as an amazing opportunity for the other club members to have an chance to step up and take one of these people on a ride this year and hopefully some of these pilots will decide to go ahead and transition over to gliders and join the club. This seems like such an easy model for club growth.

Thanks as always for your help and encouragement.
Bruno - B4
  #2  
Old April 8th 14, 07:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Splitting Costs of Flying a Club Demo Ride?

On Monday, April 7, 2014 8:48:52 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Here is the basic scenario:

A non-commercial glider pilot is a member of a glider club. This pilot pays $600 per year to be a part of the club and flies on average only 10 or so hours per year. That of course equates to a cost of $60 per flown hour.

Let's say this glider club member then takes someone interested in gliding on a demo ride for an hour. The tow costs $60.

To stay true to the FAR's so they don't act like a commercial pilot, from what I understand, they are allowed to split the cost of the flight. OK, that is fine. Can they only split the cost of the tow or can the demo passenger pay for the full tow because the pilot is contributing $60 already to be able to make that flight with his club dues?

You can see where I am headed. My presentation about gliding to the local EAA members here last Friday was a raging success! Thanks to all who sent ideas and your own presentations. They were all so very helpful and were used a great deal.

Near the end of the presentation when everyone was feeling the love and seemed excited about soaring, I passed out a club glider demo ride sheet that said they only need to pay for the tow if they were really interested in seeing if soaring was for them. We got 21 pilot sign ups! Many came up after the presentation and were talking excitedly about wanting to try out the sport as they have always thought about it but never had an opportunity. Awesome!

Now the club needs to figure out how to best facilitate actually doing all these flights. I really hope it isn't only the instructors or commercial pilots who can give these rides. They need to stay busy with their current and new students. I see this as an amazing opportunity for the other club members to have an chance to step up and take one of these people on a ride this year and hopefully some of these pilots will decide to go ahead and transition over to gliders and join the club. This seems like such an easy model for club growth.

Thanks as always for your help and encouragement.

Bruno - B4



There's always Airpooler.

http://techcrunch.com/2014/04/02/airpooler/

(not an endorsement)

  #3  
Old April 8th 14, 02:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
David Reitter
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Default Splitting Costs of Flying a Club Demo Ride?

On Monday, April 7, 2014 11:48:52 PM UTC-4, wrote:

To stay true to the FAR's so they don't act like a commercial pilot, from what I understand, they are allowed to split the cost of the flight. OK, that is fine. Can they only split the cost of the tow or can the demo passenger pay for the full tow because the pilot is contributing $60 already to be able to make that flight with his club dues?


The FARs allow sharing of "operating expenses", and the FAA has taken a very narrow view of this in the past. That is, unless you'd like to go to court and fight it out, their interpretation seems to be limited to direct costs associated with the specific flight: the tow, in this case, and rental (club charges). Of course it would be up to the club to structure its fees differently. The easiest and safest way forward would be might be to just convince a few people to get their commercial.
  #4  
Old April 8th 14, 03:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
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Default Splitting Costs of Flying a Club Demo Ride?

Take a broader view and look at the outcome that you desire. Ideally, some power pilots would become serious students, get their add-on ratings (quickly) and buy private gliders (or become occasional users of club ships, pay dues and volunteer time to keep the club running).

If your training program is already operating at full capacity (instructors have no spare time to give rides), is it a mistake to recruit more students that would serve to overburden the instructors and degrade the training experience for everyone involved?

You have limited club ships and instructor hours. Your capacity to service new students is limited. So demoing 19 pilots in a short period of time might overload your capacity to take them to the next step. Having a temporary glut of students increases the chances of those students getting bogged down in club style training and dropping out of the sport. Best to avoid this outcome.

It would be better to have a steady stream of candidate pilots getting rides over an extended period of time. I'd suggest that if you have spare instructional capacity, that you give say two rides a week, and continue at that rate until new students start to strain instructional and club ship resources. When your training program reaches capacity, suspend taking new rides. Restart the rides when training capacity is once again starting to become available. In the meantime get more CFI-Gs to increase instructional capacity.

Perhaps it makes sense to give preference in the 'ride queue' to those who want to take an initial flying lesson. Is a pilot that just wants to 'take a ride' less likely to progress to the next stage? Those pilots might go to commercial operation and pay the tourist rate. It would be most productive (in terms of increasing active membership) to keep your instructors focused on giving 'initial lessons'.

Your most efficient way to boost membership would be to have a pilot take an initial lesson, get hooked, and then go to a commercial flight school to get their add-on rating in a concentrated period of training. Then they come back, become active in the club, get a field checkout and a couple lessons as a advanced student, volunteer, pay dues and become a productive club member.
  #5  
Old April 8th 14, 04:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Leonard[_2_]
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Default Splitting Costs of Flying a Club Demo Ride?

Be sure to ask your insurance company as well. If you are with Costello, they very clearly state only commercial rated pilots can give demo or intro rides.

If you do not have a commercial license, but you know the person that is wanting a ride, were going to go up anyway in the club two place that day, and want to take a passenger along and split the expenses of that particular flight, then anybody that has a private rating and is current can take a friend along for a flight. However to do this as a scheduled event is skating on thin ice from the FAA and insurance world.

Sorry, Bruno, but I think these really need to be given by commercial rated pilots to avoid possible issues in the event of an incident of any sort. Just my two cents.

Great opportunity to hit a well targeted audience. Hope it works out well for you and you get some new members. Heck, you might even get some tow pilots, too!

Steve Leonard
  #6  
Old April 8th 14, 04:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Kuykendall
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Default Splitting Costs of Flying a Club Demo Ride?

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 7:35:33 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:

Take a broader view and look at the outcome that you desire. Ideally, some power pilots would become serious students, get their add-on ratings (quickly) and buy private gliders (or become occasional users of club ships, pay dues and volunteer time to keep the club running).

If your training program is already operating at full capacity (instructors have no spare time to give rides), is it a mistake to recruit more students that would serve to overburden the instructors and degrade the training experience for everyone involved?


Those are important considerations. But I would suggest a slightly different perspective:

* In my experience, very few demo rides "stick" and turn into serious students. So in order to replace pilots who are aging-out and otherwise leaving soaring, it pays to do lots of demo rides and introductory lessons.

* If your training program is already operating at full capacity, you must be doing something very right. You rock! Now one of the things you might consider is whether and how you might increase your operating capacity without encountering burnout. More commercial pilots would be a good start; the delta between private and commercial proficiency really isn't all that large..

Thanks, Bob K.
  #7  
Old April 8th 14, 05:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Default Splitting Costs of Flying a Club Demo Ride?

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 9:38:46 AM UTC-6, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 7:35:33 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:



Take a broader view and look at the outcome that you desire. Ideally, some power pilots would become serious students, get their add-on ratings (quickly) and buy private gliders (or become occasional users of club ships, pay dues and volunteer time to keep the club running).




If your training program is already operating at full capacity (instructors have no spare time to give rides), is it a mistake to recruit more students that would serve to overburden the instructors and degrade the training experience for everyone involved?




Those are important considerations. But I would suggest a slightly different perspective:



* In my experience, very few demo rides "stick" and turn into serious students. So in order to replace pilots who are aging-out and otherwise leaving soaring, it pays to do lots of demo rides and introductory lessons.



* If your training program is already operating at full capacity, you must be doing something very right. You rock! Now one of the things you might consider is whether and how you might increase your operating capacity without encountering burnout. More commercial pilots would be a good start; the delta between private and commercial proficiency really isn't all that large.



Thanks, Bob K.


Needs some revision, but speaks clearly to the issues involved in a club/chapter where the SSA Group Plan is in place.

http://www.ssa.org/ClubsAndChapters?show=blog&id=2027

Frank Whiteley
  #8  
Old April 8th 14, 06:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
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Default Splitting Costs of Flying a Club Demo Ride?

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 11:38:46 AM UTC-4, Bob Kuykendall wrote:

If your training program is already operating at full capacity, you must be doing something very right. You rock!


Or the club is relying on too few CFI-Gs (who may be teetering on the edge of burn-out).


  #9  
Old April 8th 14, 07:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 2,124
Default Splitting Costs of Flying a Club Demo Ride?

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 1:34:09 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 11:38:46 AM UTC-4, Bob Kuykendall wrote:



If your training program is already operating at full capacity, you must be doing something very right. You rock!




Or the club is relying on too few CFI-Gs (who may be teetering on the edge of burn-out).


We grew from 40 members to about 70 on 1 instructor.
More good instructors are a big benefit.
UH
  #10  
Old April 8th 14, 08:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 2,124
Default Splitting Costs of Flying a Club Demo Ride?

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 10:35:33 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
Take a broader view and look at the outcome that you desire. Ideally, some power pilots would become serious students, get their add-on ratings (quickly) and buy private gliders (or become occasional users of club ships, pay dues and volunteer time to keep the club running).



If your training program is already operating at full capacity (instructors have no spare time to give rides), is it a mistake to recruit more students that would serve to overburden the instructors and degrade the training experience for everyone involved?



You have limited club ships and instructor hours. Your capacity to service new students is limited. So demoing 19 pilots in a short period of time might overload your capacity to take them to the next step. Having a temporary glut of students increases the chances of those students getting bogged down in club style training and dropping out of the sport. Best to avoid this outcome.



It would be better to have a steady stream of candidate pilots getting rides over an extended period of time. I'd suggest that if you have spare instructional capacity, that you give say two rides a week, and continue at that rate until new students start to strain instructional and club ship resources. When your training program reaches capacity, suspend taking new rides. Restart the rides when training capacity is once again starting to become available. In the meantime get more CFI-Gs to increase instructional capacity.



Perhaps it makes sense to give preference in the 'ride queue' to those who want to take an initial flying lesson. Is a pilot that just wants to 'take a ride' less likely to progress to the next stage? Those pilots might go to commercial operation and pay the tourist rate. It would be most productive (in terms of increasing active membership) to keep your instructors focused on giving 'initial lessons'.



Your most efficient way to boost membership would be to have a pilot take an initial lesson, get hooked, and then go to a commercial flight school to get their add-on rating in a concentrated period of training. Then they come back, become active in the club, get a field checkout and a couple lessons as a advanced student, volunteer, pay dues and become a productive club member.


Our experience is that 1 in 4 of our rides off the street becomes interested enough to buy a 4 flight introductory package and about 1 in 3 of those join. With a group like described above, I would guess on a better stick rate of about 1 in 3.
One useful way to not burn out instructors is to not make them give rides. Let the commercial guys do that so the instructors can instruct.
FWIW
UH
 




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