Cirrus Deploys Chute Safely

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:36:28 -0700, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


"Corky Scott" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:12:30 -0700, "C J Campbell"
wrote:

Yet another Cirrus flying in coffin corner at high altitude in
turbulence.
It seems to me that if airline pilots can be taught to do this without
falling out of the sky, then surely a Cirrus pilot can be taught the
same,
or at least, like the rest of us, just stay out of there.

How can you discern that from the story? Nothing in the text says
that the airplane was at high altitude, only that it got into a spin
due to extreme turbulence. Did you have access to additional
information not given in the story that the posted URL gives you?

My question would be: why was the pilot flying the airplane in a
thunderstorm? Was he flying in clouds and encountered an embedded
stormcell?

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/du...or/9723097.htm

Can you expand on your comment about coffin corner? My understanding
of coffin corner relates to jets flying high enough that their
indicated cruise speed is approach their indicated stall speed.

I looked up the SR22 POH for cruise speeds, stall speeds, etc.

If the SR22 was throttled back for economy or maneuvering.
47% pwr cruise @ 16000 feet = 162 KTAS
@ 16000 pressure altitude, 162 KTAS ~= 123 KIAS

Even at worst case CG and weight, stall speed for the SR22 is 70 KIAS.

That leaves margin of 53 kts. Seems ample to avoid a stall.

I do wonder what caused the pilot to stall @ 16kft.

-Nathan

In article , Dave Hyde says...

Fullterton is still alive, BTW.

Boy I bet he's glad about that :-) Thanks for the clairifaction.

Chuck ( the rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated)S

Actually, no pilot has ever reported recovering from a spin in a Cirrus.

Who would he report to?

It
is not for lack of trying. There are numerous reports of Cirrus aircraft
crashing (or they would have crashed if CAPS had not been deployed) after
the pilots entered a spin, however.

I don't agree. What there have been is a few low altitude spin ins and a couple
of crashes involving pilots not deploying the chute. However, there is no indication
that they attempted to recover from (or even recognized they were involved in) a spin.

Searching the NTSB for Cirrus:

1. Stall/spin immediately after takeoff (treetop level). SR20
2. Pilot deployed CAPS in IMC after insturments became unreliable SR22
3. Botched landing due to brake failure. SR22
4. Wire strike during simulated forced landing SR22
5. Low altitude stall due to evasive manouvering in the pattern. SR20
6. Crash from low altitude pass SR20
7. Wire strike. SR20
8. Spatial disorientation followed by a high speed impact with the ground (unlikely therefore
to have been a spin). SR22
9. VFR-into-IMC CFIT SR20
10. Collision with deer SR20
11. CAPS deployed after aileron falls off. SR22
12. Mountainous terrain/Density Alt CFIT SR20
13. SPIN FROM 5000 FEET. SR22
14. Spatial disorientation and CAPS wouldn't deploy, collides with trees on emergency landing. SR22
15. Emergency landing due to failure to replace drain plug SR20
16. Forced landing due to fuel mismanagement. SR22
17. Botched landing SR22
18. VFR into IMC CFIT (mountainous) SR20
19. SR20 test crash (aileron jamming)
20. VK30 CG test results in spin.
21. VF30 engine fire forced landing

Plus there are two more that don't have enough information to determine. However
I suspect one was a botched illicit IFR approach. The other was a fatal in Spain.
As far as I know ther ehave been FOUR Cirrus deployments (counting the most
recent one) Of which only the last one as near as I can tell might be spin related.
The others were PANIC button pulls from mechanical failures or disoriented pilots.

So at the most we've had one SR20/SR22 crash from a spin that the pilot might
have thought to try recovering from (either via CAPS deployment or control input)
and one CAPS deployment to avert a spin.

This doesn't agree with your statement.

I found it refreshing that both newspaper accounts treated the story
in an intelligent, technically reasonable manner with none hysterical
ranting that often occurs in accounts of General Aviation incidents.

Sid Knox

Velocity N199RS
Starduster N666SK
KR2 N24TC
W7QJQ

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

Actually, no pilot has ever reported recovering from a spin in a Cirrus.

Who would he report to?

It
is not for lack of trying. There are numerous reports of Cirrus aircraft
crashing (or they would have crashed if CAPS had not been deployed)
after
the pilots entered a spin, however.

I don't agree. What there have been is a few low altitude spin ins and a
couple
of crashes involving pilots not deploying the chute. However, there is
no indication
that they attempted to recover from (or even recognized they were involved
in) a spin.

Searching the NTSB for Cirrus:

1. Stall/spin immediately after takeoff (treetop level). SR20
2. Pilot deployed CAPS in IMC after insturments became unreliable SR22

Cirrus' manuals treat spins and steep spirals the same. In this case, the
airplane entered a steep spiral.

3. Botched landing due to brake failure. SR22
4. Wire strike during simulated forced landing SR22
5. Low altitude stall due to evasive manouvering in the pattern. SR20

I am not sure what your point about altitude is or why you think it proves I
am wrong, but I am willing to listen to it.

6. Crash from low altitude pass SR20
7. Wire strike. SR20
8. Spatial disorientation followed by a high speed impact with the ground
(unlikely therefore
to have been a spin). SR22

No, but it would have been a steep spiral, which Cirrus seems to think is
the same thing.

9. VFR-into-IMC CFIT SR20
10. Collision with deer SR20
11. CAPS deployed after aileron falls off. SR22
12. Mountainous terrain/Density Alt CFIT SR20

One of these two CFITs had the pilot reporting that he had entered a spin.
Of course, the news reports may have been incorrect.

13. SPIN FROM 5000 FEET. SR22
14. Spatial disorientation and CAPS wouldn't deploy, collides with trees
on emergency landing. SR22
15. Emergency landing due to failure to replace drain plug SR20
16. Forced landing due to fuel mismanagement. SR22
17. Botched landing SR22
18. VFR into IMC CFIT (mountainous) SR20
19. SR20 test crash (aileron jamming)
20. VK30 CG test results in spin.
21. VF30 engine fire forced landing

Plus there are two more that don't have enough information to determine.
However
I suspect one was a botched illicit IFR approach. The other was a fatal
in Spain.
As far as I know ther ehave been FOUR Cirrus deployments (counting the
most
recent one) Of which only the last one as near as I can tell might be
spin related.
The others were PANIC button pulls from mechanical failures or disoriented
pilots.

So at the most we've had one SR20/SR22 crash from a spin that the pilot
might
have thought to try recovering from (either via CAPS deployment or control
input)
and one CAPS deployment to avert a spin.

This doesn't agree with your statement.

I count four spins.

Why dont people make airplanes that will spin anymore?

Why dont people make airplanes that will spin anymore?



I am pretty sure that its a trade off for speed or weight. Then again,
Lancair 400 supposedly spins just fine, so go figure.

In article ,
"Dave Hyde" wrote:

Orval Fairbairn wrote

That is apparently what cost Astronaut Gorden Fullerton his life, when
he was testflying a Cirrus.

That will come as a surprise to him. :-) You're thinking of
Bob Overmyer, but he was killed in a VK-30, which was a completely
different airplane, a kit put out by Cirrus before they certificated
the SR series. Fullterton is still alive, BTW.

Dave 'program' Hyde




You are right! My bad! I am glad that GF is still with us.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message news:qd-dnQxHoKuEcc_cRVn-

2. Pilot deployed CAPS in IMC after insturments became unreliable SR22

Cirrus' manuals treat spins and steep spirals the same. In this case, the
airplane entered a steep spiral.

But that wasn't your assertion. Your assertion was that spin recovery was either
fatal or resulted in a CAPS deployment, with the implication being that spin recovery
by control inputs was not possible. Sprials are a completely different beast.


5. Low altitude stall due to evasive manouvering in the pattern. SR20

I am not sure what your point about altitude is or why you think it proves I
am wrong, but I am willing to listen to it.

Because my assertion is that no matter what the method for spin recovery would
be (in whatever aircraft), recovery from such a low altitude spin would have been
unlikely.

8. Spatial disorientation followed by a high speed impact with the ground
(unlikely therefore
to have been a spin). SR22

No, but it would have been a steep spiral, which Cirrus seems to think is
the same thing.

But that wasn't the point you claimed. You claimed that people were dying because
there was no way to recover from the spin.

9. VFR-into-IMC CFIT SR20
12. Mountainous terrain/Density Alt CFIT SR20

One of these two CFITs had the pilot reporting that he had entered a spin.
Of course, the news reports may have been incorrect.

Neither is apparent from the NTSB report... One showed the aircraft entering
pretty much flat and straight ahead, the other showed failure outclimb obstacles
at a reduced peformance (DA) condition.


I count four spins.

I don't. I count at most one spin that could have been recoverable if the aircraft
had conventional spin behavior (and it has yet been proven that the Cirrus can't be
recovered by some control inputs). Your assertion of numerous crashes as a result
of spins and/or deployments is not supported. Even by your own optimistic view
it's only 4.

"Justin H" wrote in message ...
Why dont people make airplanes that will spin anymore?

Who says they don't?