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Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 14th 09, 11:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce
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Posts: 113
Default Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?

OK so time to start a new thread.

I submit that the best winch I have ever driven, been launched by etc is
the home built single drum monstrosity currently at Parys.

Metrics used to come to this conclusion would be safety and cost / launch.

It was built in the 1960s by Hans Lobach while he was flying at
Underberg. When they upgraded to a more powerful double drum design the
Parys bunch purchased it.

It has a donor vehicle was a Ford Ranchero 1ton pickup -
352 CID Ford Windsor V8 (170Kw when new - somewhat less now)
3 speed transmission - launched in second with the kickdown disabled.
Standard (rumoured to be 4.16:1) axle mounted inverted with a shortened
propshaft.

So - we have one machine that has been launching training two seaters
for more than half a century now.
No one has been killed launching with it in those 50 years. As far as I
know the most serious injury has been a broken finger when someone
pulled on the cable while the winch driver was removing a loop on the drum.

Still has the same engine, same gearbox etc. Remarkable considering it
averages around 50-60 launches a weekend. So it has somewhere between
100,000 and 150,000 launches behind it without major overhaul.

I have launched in Bergfalkes, Blaniks, Std Cirrus and Kestrel 19 on
it. Others have launched Grob 103 and other "heavies".
Interestingly considering the arguments about more sophistication and
instrumentation and all the rest of it the operating procedure is very
simple. The rev counter and speedometer have long been disconnected - it
was found far better for the winch driver to learn to read the catenary
on the cable and adjust tension appropriately to the actual circumstances.

Purchase / build cost is lost to the mists of time. Hans Lobach
celebrated 60 years of gliding taking a launch on "his" winch a couple
of years ago - but could not recall what it cost to build. Cost per
launch is so low the club winch cost is $4 - and that is with the
thing drinking 800ml of premium per launch. Newer engines would be a lot
more efficient.

Apart from the head gear (rollers and guillotine) there is little that
wears out. 2.8mm class B spring steel single strand wire works great, We
get about 1000 launches from a cable before it starts work hardening and
breaking.

That winch is probably the only reason such a small club can continue to
operate economically.

That said it is now in serious need of a little TLC - mainly cosmetic -
to prevent people mistaking it for a heap of scrap metal at the end of
the runway...

The only problem is no-one wants to stop flying long enough to do the
prettying up.

So - who has a better winch? (on metrics of safety over life and cost /
launch)

If anyone wants to see pictures - The carburettor clogged up a jet on a
nice day. Serious attention required. ;-)

http://www.whisperingwings.org.za/ga...0&id=P1010008a

A couple more pictures he
http://www.whisperingwings.org.za/ga...album10&page=7

Happy winching.
  #2  
Old July 14th 09, 12:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Surfer!
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Posts: 81
Default Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?

In message , Bruce
writes
snip
Others have launched Grob 103 and other "heavies".

(All weights AFAIK)

ASH 25 at MTOW? (750kg I think, same as the Nimbus 4D)

K21 is 600kg, Grob 103 is 580kg - 676kg depending on the version, Duo is
700kg.

Snip

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net
  #3  
Old July 14th 09, 01:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce
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Posts: 113
Default Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?

Surfer! wrote:
In message , Bruce
writes
snip
Others have launched Grob 103 and other "heavies".

(All weights AFAIK)

ASH 25 at MTOW? (750kg I think, same as the Nimbus 4D)

K21 is 600kg, Grob 103 is 580kg - 676kg depending on the version, Duo is
700kg.

Snip

Duo XLT is now 750 kg...

And yes - that is why the Drakensberg guys built a new Chevy 454 winch
with much more power. (For some reason this is the "small block" - I
just wonder what it is compared to?)

There were aparently loooong seconds on the uphill launch with the Grob
twin astir that were too uncomfortable at Underberg.

A short uphill runway at 5200MSL on a hot summer day is not a good place
to have the winch ambling up to full speed...

For our use the Ford has about enough for a safe, no wind launch with a
L13 at max weight and density altitude in the 8-9000 feet range.
  #4  
Old July 14th 09, 07:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
tommytoyz[_2_]
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Posts: 23
Default Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?

No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not
the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times,
even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong
about that.

We should establish a base where the winch launching is permanently
available and have the FBOs offer other services there. My argument to
the FBOs has been that they could make as much or more money offering
a winch launch at $10, because there would be many more launches and
more people flying not only because it would be cheaper, but also
because it would be much more fun. Anyone who has winch launched knows
it is much more fun than an areo tow.

Look at the professional operations in Europe, they have large
operations with winches and also offer areo tows, which also keep them
busy because there are always reasons to do an areo tow.
Unfortunately, my discussions on this topic always falls on deaf ears,
so maybe they know something I don't, but I suspect it's a fear of
changing to an new method (for them) and business model.

My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs
should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a
suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the
winch is - if not more so.

In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site,
managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That
would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider
operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that
will almost always be prohibited by the owners.
Tom
  #5  
Old July 14th 09, 08:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Whelan[_3_]
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Posts: 400
Default Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?

Bruce wrote:

Interesting winch history mostly snipped...
Still has the same engine, same gearbox etc. Remarkable considering it
averages around 50-60 launches a weekend. So it has somewhere between
100,000 and 150,000 launches behind it without major overhaul.

Snip...
Purchase / build cost is lost to the mists of time. Hans Lobach
celebrated 60 years of gliding taking a launch on "his" winch a couple
of years ago - but could not recall what it cost to build. Cost per
launch is so low the club winch cost is $4 - and that is with the
thing drinking 800ml of premium per launch. Newer engines would be a lot
more efficient.

Your club is lucky indeed to have this sort of paid-for,
safely-functioning bit of hardware! Puts y'all in the happy position of
being able to decide what sort of financial model you want to use (e.g.
"cheap launches" at one end of the model spectrum, as contrasted to
"capital improvement fund" at another end). Definitely more flexible
(and recession-resistant) than "gotta pay off this beastie's mortgage"
rigid pricing!

Snip...
That winch is probably the only reason such a small club can continue to
operate economically.

"Ayup...this in a nutshell is (to me, anyway) the crux of 'tension
control' winching gaining acceptance.

Assuming at least one 'cheapie-version/technology-demonstrator'
tension-control winch can be brought to operational use somewhere in the
world, then 'Father Time' will be the judge as to whether or not safety
is statistically-enhanced in practice...while he'll also be keeping a
keen eye on maintenance costs/issues.

Meanwhile, the new technology - for better or worse - will be competing
against existing technology, cost-wise. Seems to me there's no realistic
way to remove practical economics from this particular playing field...

Regards,
Bob W.
  #6  
Old July 14th 09, 09:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Posts: 2,099
Default Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?

On Jul 14, 12:51*pm, tommytoyz wrote:
No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not
the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times,
even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong
about that.

We should establish a base where the winch launching is permanently
available and have the FBOs offer other services there. My argument to
the FBOs has been that they could make as much or more money offering
a winch launch at $10, because there would be many more launches and
more people flying not only because it would be cheaper, but also
because it would be much more fun. Anyone who has winch launched knows
it is much more fun than an areo tow.

Look at the professional operations in Europe, they have large
operations with winches and also offer areo tows, which also keep them
busy because there are always reasons to do an areo tow.
Unfortunately, my discussions on this topic always falls on deaf ears,
so maybe they know something I don't, but I suspect it's a fear of
changing to an new method (for them) and business model.

My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs
should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a
suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the
winch is - if not more so.

In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site,
managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That
would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider
operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that
will almost always be prohibited by the owners.
Tom


Don at Cross Country Soaring reports getting 2400ft launches at his
operation off the local municipal airport. The synthetic performance
ropes make this possible, even with runway lights. The Soaring
Sooners are based at another small municipal airport and operate a
winch there. Caprock Soaring operates a winch parallel to the main
runway at Littlefield. Finger Lakes Soaring Club winches at Dansville
Municipal Airport. Orange County Soaring Association winches from
Hemet Airport. There are others. It is doable, but the setting is
important also as more space is highly desirable.

There been some movement on mobile winch liability coverage which may
well open up several more venues. A good winch and a two-seater may
see the return of the 'barn stormers';^)

Frank Whiteley
  #7  
Old July 15th 09, 01:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
tommytoyz[_2_]
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Posts: 23
Default Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?

Orange County Soaring Association winches from
Hemet Airport.

You might want to check which clubs really operate out of airports in
the USA. Just because a club owns a winch, does not mean they winch
from where they are normally based. The Orange County club for
instance certainly does not winch out of the Hemet airport, they only
winch out of 29 Palms on occasion. So I throw your stats all into
doubt. I am not aware of any publicly owned airport in the USA that
allows dual winch/regular traffic operations. Of course I could be
ignorant and wrong. It would be a good exercise to factually check if
there really are any and then see how they resolved the liability/
operational issues.
Tom
  #8  
Old July 15th 09, 02:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
tommytoyz[_2_]
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Posts: 23
Default Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?

I stand corrected,

The Orange County Folk do operate via winch out of Hemet -
congratulations to them.
Tom
  #9  
Old July 15th 09, 02:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Don Johnstone[_4_]
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Posts: 398
Default Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?

At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:
No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not
the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times,
even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong
about that.


My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs
should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a
suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the
winch is - if not more so.

In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site,
managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That
would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider
operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that
will almost always be prohibited by the owners.
Tom



The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception
of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an
established airport.
In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth
airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed
themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to
operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction.

Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the
proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can
be very much shorter.

Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a
field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the
prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can
launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can
even bungey launch off it.
  #10  
Old July 15th 09, 04:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Posts: 2,099
Default Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?

On Jul 14, 7:30*pm, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:



No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not
the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times,
even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong
about that.


My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs
should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a
suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the
winch is - if not more so.


In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site,
managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That
would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider
operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that
will almost always be prohibited by the owners.
Tom


The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception
of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an
established airport.
In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth
airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed
themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to
operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction.

Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the
proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can
be very much shorter.

Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a
field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the
prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can
launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can
even bungey launch off it.


That's exactly the approach taken at King Mountain Glider Park (long
an HG venue). Develop the site.
http://www.kingmountaingliderpark.com/

King Mountain Safari, Aug 17-22

Frank Whiteley
 




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