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Third Military-Civil MAC Jan. 18, 2005
The latest Military-Civil MAC occurred Tuesday, January 18, 2005. The military pilots stated the Air Tractor impacted the right side of their aircraft. http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.4.7&idno=14 Title 14: Aeronautics and Space PART 91—GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES Subpart B—Flight Rules General § 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations. (d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. ------------------------------------------------------------ First Military-Civil MAC: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X33340&key=1 The NTSB erroneously found the glider pilot to be at fault despite FAA regulations granting him the right-of-way over powered aircraft. http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.4.7&idno=14 Title 14: Aeronautics and Space PART 91—GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES Subpart B—Flight Rules General § 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations. (d)(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft. ------------------------------------------------------------ Second Military-Civil MAC: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...1FA028A&rpt=fi The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows. the failure of the F-16 flight lead pilot and F-16 accident pilot to maintain an adequate visual lookout while maneuvering. Factors contributing to the accident we the F-16 flight lead pilots decision to discontinue radar traffic advisory service, the F-16 flight lead pilots failure to identify a position error in his aircrafts navigational system, the F-16 pilots subsequent inadvertent [sic] entry into class C airspace without establishing and maintaining required communications with air traffic control (ATC); and ATCs lack of awareness that there was more than one F-16 aircraft in the formation flight, which reduced the ATC controllers ability to detect and resolve the conflict that resulted in the collision. The NTSB apparently failed to notice, that the F-16's navigation system error did not affect Parker's deliberate decision to descend into Class B airspace without the required ATC clearance. ------------------------------------------------------------ Third Military-Civil MAC: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...26X00109&key=2 NTSB Identification: CHI05FA055B 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Tuesday, January 18, 2005 in Hollister, OK Aircraft: Air Tractor AT-502B, registration: N8526M Injuries: 1 Fatal, 1 Minor, 1 Uninjured. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On [Tuesday] January 18, 2005, approximately 1128 central standard time, an Air Tractor AT-502B single-engine agricultural airplane, N8526M, and a Cessna T-37B, a twin-turbojet military trainer, tail number 66008003, operating under the call sign Cider 21, were destroyed following a midair collision during cruise flight near Hollister, Oklahoma. The AT-502B was registered to a private individual and operated by a commercial pilot. The T-37B was registered to and operated by the United States Air Force (USAF). The commercial pilot in the AT-502B was fatally injured. The USAF flight instructor pilot was not injured and the USAF student pilot sustained minor injuries. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and a flight plan was not filed for the AT-502B, who was operating under 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 for the ferry flight. An instrument rules flight plan was filed for the T-37B, who was operating under Air Force Instructions (AFI) 11-202, Volume III. The cross-country flight for the AT-502B flight originated from the Olney Municipal Airport, near Olney, Texas, approximately 1100, and was destined for Huron, South Dakota, with an intermediate fuel stop. The local flight for the T-37B originated from the Sheppard Air Force Base (SPS), near Wichita Falls, Texas, approximately 1022. According to company personnel from an Air Tractor dealership in Arkansas, the pilot was hired to ferry the recently purchased AT-502B to the new owner in Huron, South Dakota, with an intermediate refueling stop in Hutchinson, Kansas. Company personnel at the Air Tractor factory located in Olney, Texas, reported that the AT-502B was equipped with basic visual flight rules (VFR) instruments and was not equipped with any radios or a transponder. Company personnel added that the pilot had a hand held aircraft radio transmitter, a hand held Garmin 295 GPS unit, and various maps prior to departure. During an interview with the NTSB investigator-in-charge (IIC), the USAF flight instructor and student pilot reported that they were on a routine mission training flight (C2803). After a non-eventful departure from SPS, they performed two normal overhead approaches to SPS before being cleared into the Military Operations Area (MOA). Once in the MOA, the training flight completed one loop, a barrel roll, two power on stalls, one spin recovery, two spin prevents, traffic pattern stalls, and slow flight. After completing the series of high altitude maneuvers, the training flight received radar vectors to the RANCH intersection and then to the Frederick Municipal Airport (FDR), near Frederick, Oklahoma, which is commonly referred to by the USAF as "Hacker." As the flight descended to an altitude of 6,000 feet, the instructor noted the bottom of the overcast cloud ceiling to be between 6,000 and 6,500 feet mean sea level (msl). After arriving at Hacker, the training flight performed a straight in no flap landing, and requested left closed traffic. After completing a normal overhead approach and a single-engine landing, the flight proceeded to depart Hacker's airspace to the east and climbed to 5,500 feet msl. During this time, the USAF student pilot performed the en route portion of his checklist and contacted USAF Radar Approach Control (Rapcon) to notify them they were en route back to Sheppard Air Force Base and requested the "home plate" arrival. Rapcon advised the flight that they had radar contact, and to descend to 5,000 feet msl on a heading of 100 degrees. After leveling off at 5,000 feet msl at an indicated airspeed of 200 knots, the flight instructor took control of the T-37B. The instructor stated that he briefly scanned at the student pilot's altimeter on the left side of the instrument panel (a standard practice for T-37 flight instructors). As he was turning his head back to the right, he noticed a "high visibility yellow airplane" out of the right corner of his eye. The student pilot stated that as the flight instructor took control of the aircraft, he scanned outside the airplane to the left, and started to look back to the right when he saw the yellow Air Tractor heading towards the right side of the T-37B. Subsequently, the instructor and student pilot recalled feeling a spinning sensation, and rolling inverted. Both the instructor and student pilot initiated emergency egress procedures and ejected from the aircraft. The T-37B and AT-502B impacted farm fields about 3.5 miles east of Hollister, Oklahoma. Both aircraft were partially consumed by a post impact fire. A witness located north of the accident site reported in a written statement that he observed an aircraft descending rapidly in a nose down attitude and on fire prior to losing sight of it behind a tree line. Subsequently, the witness observed a second aircraft spinning in a nose down attitude, and it was missing a wing. The witness added that a plume of smoke was originating from the airplane but he didn't see any flames. As the airplane continued to descend, he noticed two parachutes on each side of the airplane and he decided to proceed to the area to see if he could assist the pilots. ------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.kfdx.com/news/default.asp...ownews&id=7511 FAA STATES CROP DUSTER PILOT DIDN`T VIOLATE AIRSPACE Friday, January 21, 2005 A Federal Aviation Administration official says the pilot of a crop duster violated no rules before his plane and an Air Force training jet collided in mid-air in Southwestern Oklahoma. Pilot Dierk Nash of Wheatley, Arkansas died in the collision and crash Tuesday in a military operating area over Tillman County, Oklahoma. Nash was flying the plane from Texas to a customer in South Dakota and the jet flown by Captain Christopher Otis and Second Lieutenant Roderick James was returning to Sheppard Air Force Base. Otis and James parachuted safely from the jet before it crashed. FAA spokesman John Clabes says Nash had a clean flight record and was not in violation of any rule as far as investigators can tell. The FAA is assisting the National Transportation Safety Board`s investigation of the crash. Sheppard Air Force Base is conducting its own investigation in cooperation with the FAA and the NTSB. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.avweb.com/newswire/11_05a.../189070-1.html ....With Details From Surviving Pilots By Mary Grady Newswriter, Editor The T-37 pilots had completed a training session and were on their way back to Sheppard Air Force Base, in Texas. They contacted USAF Radar Approach Control and were told they had radar contact. They descended to 5,000 feet and leveled off at 200 knots, the NTSB said. After leveling off from the descent, the T-37 instructor took control and briefly scanned the student's altimeter on the left side of the panel, according to standard practice. As he was turning back to the right, he told the NTSB he saw a "high visibility yellow airplane." The student pilot said that as the instructor took control, he scanned outside the airplane to the left, and started to look back to the right when he saw the yellow Air Tractor heading toward the right side of the T-37. The Air Force pilots said they felt a spinning motion and rolled inverted, and then ejected from the airplane. If the results of the investigation determine that no rules or procedures were broken in the process of a man's death and the destruction of two aircraft, perhaps it will be determined there is need to change the rules or procedures. We'll let you know. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.avweb.com/newswire/11_05a.../189069-1.html NTSB Reports On Fatal Military/Civilian Midair... By Mary Grady Newswriter, Editor In Search Of Causal Factors The pilots of an Air Force training jet saw the crop-duster seconds before the two airplanes collided 5,000 feet above rural Oklahoma about 11 a.m. on Jan. 18, the NTSB said in its preliminary report, posted Thursday. The two pilots in the Cessna T-37B jet ejected safely. The pilot of the Air Tractor AT-502B, Dierk Nash, 39, of Arkansas, was killed. FAA spokesman John Clabes told the local KFDX News that Nash had a clean flight record and was not in violation of any rule as far as investigators can tell. Nash was flying VFR, ferrying the Air Tractor from the plant in Olney, Texas, to its new owner in South Dakota. He had been flying about a half hour. The crop-duster was not equipped with a radio or transponder, but Nash had a handheld radio and a GPS unit. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- http://avweb.com/newswire/11_03b/briefs/189003-1.html January 20, 2005 Military/Civilian Midair Probed By Russ Niles Newswriter, Editor The vast majority of midair collisions are in or near the pattern so investigators have their work cut out for them in the tragic meeting of an Air Tractor crop-duster and an Air Force T-37 5,000 feet above the wide-open spaces of Oklahoma on Tuesday morning. The Air Force pilots, instructor Capt. Christopher S. Otis and student 2nd Lt. Roderick V. James, bailed out safely but the Air Tractor pilot, Derek Nach, died. Hunting guide Jerry Mayfield reached the Tweet pilots first and said one of them told him he didn't see the collision coming. There have been similar events, before. Nach was ferrying the brand-new Air Tractor from the plant in Olney, Texas, to its new owner in South Dakota. Investigators have declined detailed comment or speculation on the cause of the collision. The crash occurred near Hollister, Okla., in an area commonly used by the air training wings based at Sheppard AFB near Wichita Falls, Texas. AVweb reported another military/civilian collision in November 2004. The NTSB's current synopsis and probable cause (a PDF file) are available online. After that collision, the F-16 pilot ejected safely and walked to a local house to use the phone. The Cessna pilot was killed. ------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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It is always interesting how people talk about a slow airplane "crashing
into" a fast airplane. Obviously it isn't possible and a more reasonable explanation is that the faster airplane flew right into the path of slower airplane. Mike MU-2 "Larry Dighera" wrote in message ... The latest Military-Civil MAC occurred Tuesday, January 18, 2005. The military pilots stated the Air Tractor impacted the right side of their aircraft. http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.4.7&idno=14 Title 14: Aeronautics and Space PART 91-GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES Subpart B-Flight Rules General § 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations. (d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. ------------------------------------------------------------ First Military-Civil MAC: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X33340&key=1 The NTSB erroneously found the glider pilot to be at fault despite FAA regulations granting him the right-of-way over powered aircraft. http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.4.7&idno=14 Title 14: Aeronautics and Space PART 91-GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES Subpart B-Flight Rules General § 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations. (d)(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft. ------------------------------------------------------------ Second Military-Civil MAC: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...1FA028A&rpt=fi The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows. the failure of the F-16 flight lead pilot and F-16 accident pilot to maintain an adequate visual lookout while maneuvering. Factors contributing to the accident we the F-16 flight lead pilots decision to discontinue radar traffic advisory service, the F-16 flight lead pilots failure to identify a position error in his aircrafts navigational system, the F-16 pilots subsequent inadvertent [sic] entry into class C airspace without establishing and maintaining required communications with air traffic control (ATC); and ATCs lack of awareness that there was more than one F-16 aircraft in the formation flight, which reduced the ATC controllers ability to detect and resolve the conflict that resulted in the collision. The NTSB apparently failed to notice, that the F-16's navigation system error did not affect Parker's deliberate decision to descend into Class B airspace without the required ATC clearance. ------------------------------------------------------------ Third Military-Civil MAC: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...26X00109&key=2 NTSB Identification: CHI05FA055B 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Tuesday, January 18, 2005 in Hollister, OK Aircraft: Air Tractor AT-502B, registration: N8526M Injuries: 1 Fatal, 1 Minor, 1 Uninjured. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On [Tuesday] January 18, 2005, approximately 1128 central standard time, an Air Tractor AT-502B single-engine agricultural airplane, N8526M, and a Cessna T-37B, a twin-turbojet military trainer, tail number 66008003, operating under the call sign Cider 21, were destroyed following a midair collision during cruise flight near Hollister, Oklahoma. The AT-502B was registered to a private individual and operated by a commercial pilot. The T-37B was registered to and operated by the United States Air Force (USAF). The commercial pilot in the AT-502B was fatally injured. The USAF flight instructor pilot was not injured and the USAF student pilot sustained minor injuries. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and a flight plan was not filed for the AT-502B, who was operating under 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 for the ferry flight. An instrument rules flight plan was filed for the T-37B, who was operating under Air Force Instructions (AFI) 11-202, Volume III. The cross-country flight for the AT-502B flight originated from the Olney Municipal Airport, near Olney, Texas, approximately 1100, and was destined for Huron, South Dakota, with an intermediate fuel stop. The local flight for the T-37B originated from the Sheppard Air Force Base (SPS), near Wichita Falls, Texas, approximately 1022. According to company personnel from an Air Tractor dealership in Arkansas, the pilot was hired to ferry the recently purchased AT-502B to the new owner in Huron, South Dakota, with an intermediate refueling stop in Hutchinson, Kansas. Company personnel at the Air Tractor factory located in Olney, Texas, reported that the AT-502B was equipped with basic visual flight rules (VFR) instruments and was not equipped with any radios or a transponder. Company personnel added that the pilot had a hand held aircraft radio transmitter, a hand held Garmin 295 GPS unit, and various maps prior to departure. During an interview with the NTSB investigator-in-charge (IIC), the USAF flight instructor and student pilot reported that they were on a routine mission training flight (C2803). After a non-eventful departure from SPS, they performed two normal overhead approaches to SPS before being cleared into the Military Operations Area (MOA). Once in the MOA, the training flight completed one loop, a barrel roll, two power on stalls, one spin recovery, two spin prevents, traffic pattern stalls, and slow flight. After completing the series of high altitude maneuvers, the training flight received radar vectors to the RANCH intersection and then to the Frederick Municipal Airport (FDR), near Frederick, Oklahoma, which is commonly referred to by the USAF as "Hacker." As the flight descended to an altitude of 6,000 feet, the instructor noted the bottom of the overcast cloud ceiling to be between 6,000 and 6,500 feet mean sea level (msl). After arriving at Hacker, the training flight performed a straight in no flap landing, and requested left closed traffic. After completing a normal overhead approach and a single-engine landing, the flight proceeded to depart Hacker's airspace to the east and climbed to 5,500 feet msl. During this time, the USAF student pilot performed the en route portion of his checklist and contacted USAF Radar Approach Control (Rapcon) to notify them they were en route back to Sheppard Air Force Base and requested the "home plate" arrival. Rapcon advised the flight that they had radar contact, and to descend to 5,000 feet msl on a heading of 100 degrees. After leveling off at 5,000 feet msl at an indicated airspeed of 200 knots, the flight instructor took control of the T-37B. The instructor stated that he briefly scanned at the student pilot's altimeter on the left side of the instrument panel (a standard practice for T-37 flight instructors). As he was turning his head back to the right, he noticed a "high visibility yellow airplane" out of the right corner of his eye. The student pilot stated that as the flight instructor took control of the aircraft, he scanned outside the airplane to the left, and started to look back to the right when he saw the yellow Air Tractor heading towards the right side of the T-37B. Subsequently, the instructor and student pilot recalled feeling a spinning sensation, and rolling inverted. Both the instructor and student pilot initiated emergency egress procedures and ejected from the aircraft. The T-37B and AT-502B impacted farm fields about 3.5 miles east of Hollister, Oklahoma. Both aircraft were partially consumed by a post impact fire. A witness located north of the accident site reported in a written statement that he observed an aircraft descending rapidly in a nose down attitude and on fire prior to losing sight of it behind a tree line. Subsequently, the witness observed a second aircraft spinning in a nose down attitude, and it was missing a wing. The witness added that a plume of smoke was originating from the airplane but he didn't see any flames. As the airplane continued to descend, he noticed two parachutes on each side of the airplane and he decided to proceed to the area to see if he could assist the pilots. ------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.kfdx.com/news/default.asp...ownews&id=7511 FAA STATES CROP DUSTER PILOT DIDN`T VIOLATE AIRSPACE Friday, January 21, 2005 A Federal Aviation Administration official says the pilot of a crop duster violated no rules before his plane and an Air Force training jet collided in mid-air in Southwestern Oklahoma. Pilot Dierk Nash of Wheatley, Arkansas died in the collision and crash Tuesday in a military operating area over Tillman County, Oklahoma. Nash was flying the plane from Texas to a customer in South Dakota and the jet flown by Captain Christopher Otis and Second Lieutenant Roderick James was returning to Sheppard Air Force Base. Otis and James parachuted safely from the jet before it crashed. FAA spokesman John Clabes says Nash had a clean flight record and was not in violation of any rule as far as investigators can tell. The FAA is assisting the National Transportation Safety Board`s investigation of the crash. Sheppard Air Force Base is conducting its own investigation in cooperation with the FAA and the NTSB. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.avweb.com/newswire/11_05a.../189070-1.html ...With Details From Surviving Pilots By Mary Grady Newswriter, Editor The T-37 pilots had completed a training session and were on their way back to Sheppard Air Force Base, in Texas. They contacted USAF Radar Approach Control and were told they had radar contact. They descended to 5,000 feet and leveled off at 200 knots, the NTSB said. After leveling off from the descent, the T-37 instructor took control and briefly scanned the student's altimeter on the left side of the panel, according to standard practice. As he was turning back to the right, he told the NTSB he saw a "high visibility yellow airplane." The student pilot said that as the instructor took control, he scanned outside the airplane to the left, and started to look back to the right when he saw the yellow Air Tractor heading toward the right side of the T-37. The Air Force pilots said they felt a spinning motion and rolled inverted, and then ejected from the airplane. If the results of the investigation determine that no rules or procedures were broken in the process of a man's death and the destruction of two aircraft, perhaps it will be determined there is need to change the rules or procedures. We'll let you know. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.avweb.com/newswire/11_05a.../189069-1.html NTSB Reports On Fatal Military/Civilian Midair... By Mary Grady Newswriter, Editor In Search Of Causal Factors The pilots of an Air Force training jet saw the crop-duster seconds before the two airplanes collided 5,000 feet above rural Oklahoma about 11 a.m. on Jan. 18, the NTSB said in its preliminary report, posted Thursday. The two pilots in the Cessna T-37B jet ejected safely. The pilot of the Air Tractor AT-502B, Dierk Nash, 39, of Arkansas, was killed. FAA spokesman John Clabes told the local KFDX News that Nash had a clean flight record and was not in violation of any rule as far as investigators can tell. Nash was flying VFR, ferrying the Air Tractor from the plant in Olney, Texas, to its new owner in South Dakota. He had been flying about a half hour. The crop-duster was not equipped with a radio or transponder, but Nash had a handheld radio and a GPS unit. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- http://avweb.com/newswire/11_03b/briefs/189003-1.html January 20, 2005 Military/Civilian Midair Probed By Russ Niles Newswriter, Editor The vast majority of midair collisions are in or near the pattern so investigators have their work cut out for them in the tragic meeting of an Air Tractor crop-duster and an Air Force T-37 5,000 feet above the wide-open spaces of Oklahoma on Tuesday morning. The Air Force pilots, instructor Capt. Christopher S. Otis and student 2nd Lt. Roderick V. James, bailed out safely but the Air Tractor pilot, Derek Nach, died. Hunting guide Jerry Mayfield reached the Tweet pilots first and said one of them told him he didn't see the collision coming. There have been similar events, before. Nach was ferrying the brand-new Air Tractor from the plant in Olney, Texas, to its new owner in South Dakota. Investigators have declined detailed comment or speculation on the cause of the collision. The crash occurred near Hollister, Okla., in an area commonly used by the air training wings based at Sheppard AFB near Wichita Falls, Texas. AVweb reported another military/civilian collision in November 2004. The NTSB's current synopsis and probable cause (a PDF file) are available online. After that collision, the F-16 pilot ejected safely and walked to a local house to use the phone. The Cessna pilot was killed. ------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:18:46 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote in . net:: It is always interesting how people talk about a slow airplane "crashing into" a fast airplane. Obviously it isn't possible and a more reasonable explanation is that the faster airplane flew right into the path of slower airplane. The issue is more about which aircraft had the right-of-way than who hit whom. Presumably, ATC is off the hook this time (unlike the military-civil MAC of 11-16-02), because the Air Tractor wasn't equipped with a transponder nor radios (other than a handheld Comm and GPS). Due to the lack of Mode C altitude information for the Air Tractor, the radar data won't show if it was in a climb or descent at the time of the mishap. I don't see how the fact of the MAC occurring within a MOA had any affect in this case. |
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Since the AT is much slower than the T37, as someone else pointed out,
it is very difficult for it to crash into the T37. So who has the right-of-way when one is being "cut off" by another, much faster a/c? Outside of CLE airspace I was flying a C172 under the hood with a CFII in the right seat. We were on an approach, in contact with CLE approach when we almost became a hood ornament for a twin. You could say that we failed to give way to the a/c to our right. So I do think speed has something to do with this MAC. Regards, Steve.T PP ASEL/Instrument |
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"Larry Dighera" wrote in message ... Presumably, ATC is off the hook this time (unlike the military-civil MAC of 11-16-02), because the Air Tractor wasn't equipped with a transponder nor radios (other than a handheld Comm and GPS). If you're referring to the F-16/172 midair near Bradenton Florida, that occurred on November 16th 2000. ATC is "off the hook" in that one as well. |
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"Steve.T" wrote in message ups.com... Since the AT is much slower than the T37, as someone else pointed out, it is very difficult for it to crash into the T37. So who has the right-of-way when one is being "cut off" by another, much faster a/c? Outside of CLE airspace I was flying a C172 under the hood with a CFII in the right seat. We were on an approach, in contact with CLE approach when we almost became a hood ornament for a twin. You could say that we failed to give way to the a/c to our right. So I do think speed has something to do with this MAC. Regards, Steve.T PP ASEL/Instrument If you were in VMC then VFR rules apply (see and avoid) and it is both pilot's responsibilty to watch for traffic. Otherwise just get flight following, couple up the autopilot, and read a good book. Let the other guy watch out for you Allen |
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"Allen" wrote in message m... If you were in VMC then VFR rules apply (see and avoid) and it is both pilot's responsibilty to watch for traffic. Otherwise just get flight following, couple up the autopilot, and read a good book. Let the other guy watch out for you VFR rules apply when you're operating VFR, IFR rules apply when you're operating IFR, "see and avoid" applies when weather conditions permit. |
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Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:18:46 GMT, "Mike Rapoport" wrote in . net:: It is always interesting how people talk about a slow airplane "crashing into" a fast airplane. Obviously it isn't possible and a more reasonable explanation is that the faster airplane flew right into the path of slower airplane. The issue is more about which aircraft had the right-of-way than who hit whom. Presumably, ATC is off the hook this time (unlike the military-civil MAC of 11-16-02), because the Air Tractor wasn't equipped with a transponder nor radios (other than a handheld Comm and GPS). Due to the lack of Mode C altitude information for the Air Tractor, the radar data won't show if it was in a climb or descent at the time of the mishap. I don't see how the fact of the MAC occurring within a MOA had any affect in this case. Perhaps not legally. For the practical matter, I'd say that the pilot flying should have understood that the presence of the MOA indicated that there was a pretty good chance that someone would be using the area for some type of practice, and that perhaps either a bit of caution was called for, perhaps by flying under, over, or around the MOA in question. If not willing to do that, then contacting the local controlling agency should have ensured that the aircraft operating in the MOA were aware of his presence and extra precautions taken. It would, almost certainly, have saved the man's life. Of course, a transponder would likely have done the same thing, whether he bothered to talk to anyone or not. Mike |
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On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:09:13 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in t:: "Larry Dighera" wrote in message .. . Presumably, ATC is off the hook this time (unlike the military-civil MAC of 11-16-02), because the Air Tractor wasn't equipped with a transponder nor radios (other than a handheld Comm and GPS). If you're referring to the F-16/172 midair near Bradenton Florida, that occurred on November 16th 2000. ATC is "off the hook" in that one as well. I call your attention to number 4 of the NTSB Findings: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...1FA028B&rpt=fi A conflict alert between the lead F-16 and the Cessna activated 10 times between 15:47:39 and 15:48:03. The developmental controller stated that he heard an alarm, but could not recall where it was. The controller providing the instruction did not recall if he saw or heard a conflict alert, and no conflict alert was issued. 4. (C) ARTCC SERVICE - NOT ISSUED - ATC PERSONNEL(DEP/APCH) |
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"Larry Dighera" wrote in message ... On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:18:46 GMT, "Mike Rapoport" wrote in . net:: It is always interesting how people talk about a slow airplane "crashing into" a fast airplane. Obviously it isn't possible and a more reasonable explanation is that the faster airplane flew right into the path of slower airplane. The issue is more about which aircraft had the right-of-way than who hit whom. Presumably, ATC is off the hook this time (unlike the military-civil MAC of 11-16-02), because the Air Tractor wasn't equipped with a transponder nor radios (other than a handheld Comm and GPS). Due to the lack of Mode C altitude information for the Air Tractor, the radar data won't show if it was in a climb or descent at the time of the mishap. I don't see how the fact of the MAC occurring within a MOA had any affect in this case. I don't see how it is possible for a slow airplane to avoid a much faster one converging from behind and to the right. Mike MU-2 |
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