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  #1  
Old December 23rd 09, 05:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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http://www.nature.com/news/2009/0912...2009.1157.html
  #2  
Old December 23rd 09, 06:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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On Dec 22, 9:28�pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
http://www.nature.com/news/2009/0912...2009.1157.html


In part, given the massive fraud shown by the information that has
come out of the UK's East Anglia University's Climate Research Center,
I can not believe a word of this article.

It may be 100% correct it may be 100% false, I choose to believe it is
false. Any conclusion about climate that is based on the idea of man
made global warming now must be viewed with a very skeptical eye.

A large part of the climate research comunity has lost its validity.
They need to start over and be truly transparent and honest for a long
time before they will ever, if ever, regain the trust of the general
public let alone their peers.

The data for the world's climate, whatever its present state and
future trend, is too importent to be subject to the politicaly driven
manipulation that has occured over the last several decades.

Robert J. Mudd
  #3  
Old December 23rd 09, 07:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell
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Posts: 1,096
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wrote:
On Dec 22, 9:28�pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:

http://www.nature.com/news/2009/0912...2009.1157.html


In part, given the massive fraud shown by the information that has
come out of the UK's East Anglia University's Climate Research Center,
I can not believe a word of this article.


snip
The data for the world's climate, whatever its present state and
future trend, is too importent to be subject to the politicaly driven
manipulation that has occured over the last several decades.


Massive? Nonsense. Nothing in the emails shows fraud of anything
remotely like that, and climate science is based on far more than a few
papers and a few scientists. There is nothing in the emails that is
illegal, though there is some _talk_ of things that might prove to be
illegal, and *actions* have to be proved, so let's wait for the
investigations to complete before we hang anybody, OK?

Now, back to soaring.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
  #4  
Old December 23rd 09, 07:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Posts: 2,099
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On Dec 22, 11:07*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 22, 9:28 pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:


http://www.nature.com/news/2009/0912...2009.1157.html


In part, given the massive fraud shown by the information that has
come out of the UK's East Anglia University's Climate Research Center,
I can not believe a word of this article.


snip
The data for the world's climate, whatever its present state and
future trend, is too importent to be subject to the politicaly driven
manipulation that has occured over the last several decades.


Massive? Nonsense. Nothing in the emails shows fraud of anything
remotely like that, and climate science is based on far more than a few
papers and a few scientists. There is nothing in the emails that is
illegal, though there is some _talk_ *of things that might prove to be
illegal, and *actions* have to be proved, so let's wait for the
investigations to complete before we hang anybody, OK?

Now, back to soaring.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly


Note my comments to the article about soaring near Oxford when the
persistent contrails filled the southern sky.

Frank Whiteley
  #5  
Old December 23rd 09, 07:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Greg Arnold
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Posts: 251
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Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 22, 9:28�pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:

http://www.nature.com/news/2009/0912...2009.1157.html


In part, given the massive fraud shown by the information that has
come out of the UK's East Anglia University's Climate Research Center,
I can not believe a word of this article.


snip
The data for the world's climate, whatever its present state and
future trend, is too importent to be subject to the politicaly driven
manipulation that has occured over the last several decades.



If global warming is a fraud, someone forgot to tell the polar ice caps,
which continue to melt.




Massive? Nonsense. Nothing in the emails shows fraud of anything
remotely like that, and climate science is based on far more than a few
papers and a few scientists. There is nothing in the emails that is
illegal, though there is some _talk_ of things that might prove to be
illegal, and *actions* have to be proved, so let's wait for the
investigations to complete before we hang anybody, OK?

Now, back to soaring.

  #6  
Old December 23rd 09, 08:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Posts: 2,099
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If global warming is a fraud, someone forgot to tell the polar ice caps,
which continue to melt.

I have no doubt that there are periodic climatic weather variations
and micro-meteorological effects. Could be some are creating macro
climatic effects also but there is also evidence of long term cycles.
Last two soaring seasons in Colorado have been poor, compared to the
five drought years we had. We had substantial snow cover for months
in 2007-2008, and almost as much 2008-2009. So far we've had 33" of
snow here in Greeley this fall (nominally a desert climate) and it's
snowing again tonight. Fort Collins has reported 44 inches as of the
last snowfall and it's snowing there again tonight. We are assured of
a white Christmas for the third year in a row as we are expecting
periods of snow and blowing snow through Thursday. The only variable
that's changed somewhat since I moved here in 1995 is the deep solar
sunspot minimum which is now approaching three years in duration.

That said, we are typically drier in an El Nino period, but our snows
to date have had good moisture content and the normally high winds
that blow away the moisture haven't happened.

Whistler Mountain, site of the 2010 Winter Olympics skiing opened 12
days early this year. Some Colorado resorts opened very early this
year following a cool summer.

Loss of snow on the top of Kilimanjaro seems as significant as the
shrinking of the polar ice cap. At least some of these effects
indicate human activities, but some of the cause-effect relationships
may be less clear. Similar effects are seen in the high mountains of
Bolivia and Ecuador.

Frank Whiteley
  #7  
Old December 23rd 09, 11:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom Gardner
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Posts: 141
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On Dec 23, 5:32*am, "
wrote:
On Dec 22, 9:28 pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:

http://www.nature.com/news/2009/0912...2009.1157.html


In part, given the massive fraud shown by the information that has
come out of the UK's East Anglia University's Climate Research Center,
I can not believe a word of this article.


Don't be silly.

It may be 100% correct it may be 100% false, I choose to believe it is
false. Any conclusion about climate that is based on the idea of man
made global warming now must be viewed with a very skeptical eye.


"There's none so deaf as them's won't hear"


A large part of the climate research comunity has lost its validity.
They need to start over and be truly transparent and honest for a long
time before they will ever, if ever, regain the trust of the general
public let alone their peers.


That's an irrational overreaction.

The data for the world's climate, whatever its present state and
future trend, is too importent to be subject to the politicaly driven
manipulation that has occured over the last several decades.


Now there I agree with you, but you really ought to mention
the other driver: *commercial* interest. There's an awful (pun
intended) lot of mis-information, black and white propaganda
generated by those with a money-flow that is threatened by
climate change.

  #8  
Old December 23rd 09, 02:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
RAS
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Posts: 3
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At one time much of North America was under ice. You know when animals
could walk here from Siberia. That migration surely must have started
the warming. Now what could we title that big climate change when so
few humans were around?
Wait wait I know how about "An Inconvenient Truth"?
  #9  
Old December 23rd 09, 02:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
T8
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Posts: 429
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On Dec 23, 5:09*am, Tom Gardner wrote:

A large part of the climate research comunity has lost its validity.
They need to start over and be truly transparent and honest for a long
time before they will ever, if ever, regain the trust of the general
public let alone their peers.


That's an irrational overreaction.


Naw, it's a pretty rational reaction from someone smart enough to
smell a con job (and whether or not you think it's a "con", you will
certainly agree that it's a mighty big job being asked of the average
citizen) and not knowledgeable enough in a technical field to evaluate
several hundred lifetimes worth of "science".

It's been pretty clear for a decade that the AGW guys have been fixing
their science around a pre-ordained result. Sorry state of affairs.

Happily, even some of the true believers are starting to wake up.
Here's one environmentalist's summary: http://davidcrowe.ca/GlobalWarming.html

-Evan Ludeman / T8


  #10  
Old December 23rd 09, 04:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
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Posts: 1,224
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On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:32:14 -0800, wrote:

On Dec 22, 9:28�pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
http://www.nature.com/news/2009/0912...2009.1157.html

In part, given the massive fraud shown by the information that has come
out of the UK's East Anglia University's Climate Research Center, I can
not believe a word of this article.

If you're trying to say that refusing FOI requests for raw data proves
fraud, you're quite wrong.

Much of the data was supplied by foreign governments under NDA
agreements, so FOIA or no FOIA it can't be released.

It may be 100% correct it may be 100% false, I choose to believe it is
false. Any conclusion about climate that is based on the idea of man
made global warming now must be viewed with a very skeptical eye.

Consider that human populations have grown at least four-fold since the
start of the Industrial Revolution (in the UK from an estimated 12-16
million to the current 66 million) and the energy used per person has
increased much more (average then: their own muscle power + cooking fuel
+ a draft animal if they were well off. Average now round 20-30 MW/year
in the West). Bearing in mind that nothing like this has ever happened
before, can you really stand there with a straight face and say this
energy use explosion can have no possible impact?

A large part of the climate research comunity has lost its validity.
They need to start over and be truly transparent and honest for a long
time before they will ever, if ever, regain the trust of the general
public let alone their peers.

The current squabble isn't at all edifying, but consider that many of the
skeptics are just sniping from the sidelines and are apparently unwilling
to go back to historic sources (all of which were published) and analyse
the data themselves. If they don't believe the CRU and IPCC thats
precisely what they should be doing.

The data for the world's climate, whatever its present state and future
trend, is too importent to be subject to the politicaly driven
manipulation that has occured over the last several decades.

Quite. How about telling that to the fossil fuel companies, OPEC and the
USGS - all of whom have been just as forthcoming and truthful about the
side effects of burning carbon compounds that were last above ground
during the Carboniferous era as they were about lead or the tobacco
companies were about smoking.

If you don't believe the science behind global warming you'd better
believe the coming energy crisis. Realise, too, that almost everything
being talked about and worked on to reduce carbon emissions, from
renewables to reducing energy use, will also serve us in good stead when
fossil fuels become unavailable to the average person.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
 




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