A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old November 21st 12, 03:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 9:42:32 AM UTC-5, wrote:
The U.S. is moving towards recognizing the Club Class in 2013. A poll has been created to validate interest in establishing FAI (IGC) rules / tasking philosophy in this new class. If approved the U.S. Club Class would be the ONLY U.S. racing class under FAI (IGC) racing rules.



Please sign the petition IF YOU are interested in supporting or flying US Club Class under FAI (IGC) rules / tasking philosophy.



In the optional personal comment section please enter (if applicable):

1. Your position on the US seeding list.

2. If you have access to or own a Club Class glider, what type.

3. If you are familiar with IGC rules and prefer those rules over US rules.

4. If you would financially or otherwise support development of the US Club Class under FAI (IGC) rules.

5. If you don't currently fly US contests but would start flying US Club Class under FAI (IGC) rules.

6. If you currently fly US contests (Standard, Open, 15m, 18m or Sports) and are interested in flying US Club Class under FAI (IGC) rules.

7. Any other comments welcome!



Link to petition: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/262/8...out-exception/



Sean Franke

US Club Class Team Member


Sorry for the obsolete reference. This is what the current US Team website says:

1.5 The Sport Class Nationals are used to select pilots for the Club Class WGC. Pilots who have been a contestant in a previous WGC contest (except club class, World Class, Junior and Feminine events)are not eligible for selection to the US WGC Club Class team.

However, it doesn't alter the point that the petition should be ignored and those concerned with the best interests of the entire US soaring competition community should work within its rule making process. Run for a seat on the committee (no candidate this year), convey your opinions to the RC, suggest questions for the pilot poll, speak out at RC sessions at contests, etc.

And the point remains that the cream-of-the-crop candidates who would make the best showing for the US are effectively out of the running because their gliders have been excluded, and the practical and financial aspects of finding and flying a second glider are realistically reserved for the idle rich.

Furthermore, it is fantasy to believe some minor tweaks of the rules (start line shape, assigned tasks for instance) will produce faster pilots at WGC's. 99% of the game is on course and consists of two elements: obtaining the highest average lift and least average sink.

Karl Striedieck
  #12  
Old November 21st 12, 03:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,124
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:33:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:
USA Club Class WGC pilots are no longer restricted. Anyone can qualify, even former world champs. This was announced about two years ago. Rick Walters USTC On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 6:50:56 PM UTC-8, wrote: If a better showing at world gliding comps is the reason for the lobbying for a change of the US sport/club class rules, one has to wonder why those leading the charge have not addressed the matter of team selection rules. One rule prohibits pilots like Doug Jacobs and John Cochrane, to name just two, who, having flown in a FAI WGC, are barred from representing the US. The latest dumbing down of the US Club team rules is the restriction in gliders that can be flown. Is there any doubt that DJ, this year's Sport class winner, would be our best choice? He is ineligible both because he's flown (and won) a WGC and his ship is a percent or two out of the handicap range (read: he has to fly that much faster to win). The Sports class handicap system the US uses selects the best pilot regardless of all the whining from the crowd that would like to see the winner selected from a vastly reduced field ala the mercifully euthanized PW-5 fiasco. As to the petition being brandished about, my reaction is to request all who appreciate the excellent rule making process the US competition soaring community enjoys contact their regional directors and ask them to give it all the consideration it deserves; i.e, send it to the circular file. Karl Striedieck


US team web site needs an update to show the latest version reflecting this change.
KS lack of current info is understandable.
UH
  #13  
Old November 21st 12, 04:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 47
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition


Sorry for the obsolete reference. This is what the current US Team website says:
1.5 The Sport Class Nationals are used to select pilots for the Club Class WGC. Pilots who have been a contestant in a previous WGC contest (except club class, World Class, Junior and Feminine events)are not eligible for selection to the US WGC Club Class team.
However, it doesn't alter the point that the petition should be ignored and those concerned with the best interests of the entire US soaring competition community should work within its rule making process. Run for a seat on the committee (no candidate this year), convey your opinions to the RC, suggest questions for the pilot poll, speak out at RC sessions at contests, etc.
And the point remains that the cream-of-the-crop candidates who would make the best showing for the US are effectively out of the running because their gliders have been excluded, and the practical and financial aspects of finding and flying a second glider are realistically reserved for the idle rich.


Karl Striedieck


This petition offers valid feedback. In fact, I don't recall a pilots poll in the past inquiring on this exact topic. I'm interested in finding out if there are enough pilots who want a choice. Throwing out feedback because they may be concerned about results is irresponsible. The RC is proposing a new US racing class. Let's not assume this new class should be set up like other US classes. Taking a different approach may help grow the sport after many years of decline.

This is not about team selection or WGC preparation. Although is does bring up promising possibilities.

I have heard before that guys with $100,000+ gliders are at a disadvantage because they cant afford a $15,000 club class glider. Club Class gliders are not difficult to borrow. If this is a problem then please contact me. I'll help. I suppose if someone was really serious about flying Club Class and being on the US Team they could SELL their $100,000 glider. Then go Club Class.

Sean Franke
  #14  
Old November 21st 12, 05:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Dezzutti[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

A big thank you to the members of the rules committe for their hard work to
manage the playground and provide me with a place to play our game. I for
one appreciate all that you do and what you endure on our behalf!


  #15  
Old November 21st 12, 05:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean F (F2)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 573
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

I was not aware of that limitation on Worlds Qualification. That is, if what you are saying is true, a really bad rule. I agree 100% that the "best" pilots should be sent to the World Championships. That results in dynasty (same pilot every year ala Kawa), but that is what being a "Champion" is all about. Clearly Doug is an outstanding pilot. No debate there...

That said, definitively stating that DJ or KS or HA or R are the "best" under our US Sports Class rule system (assuming the goal is sending the best pilot to the Club Class World Championships) is a very, very interesting discussion. Until a couple weeks ago, US Sports Class rules included the entire range of all sailplanes built to date (126 - ASW 25+) under a handicap system which does not take into account the average speed of that particular task day. In my view this a massive, glaring flaw that will almost certainly favor certain gliders on certain days (or at certain contest locations).. Furthermore, If less than 12 gliders participate in the new "Club" class at the 2013 Sports/Club? Nationals, we will still default back to these same US Sports Class rules.

In sailing, for example, performance handicaps are driven by a defined variable called "average wind strength."

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick.htm

The reason for this method is that on strong wind days certain sailboat designs have greatly improved performance relative to other boats (ability to plane downwind, etc). On light air days the opposite, etc, etc. Before this factor was accounted for in the handicapping, all competitors basically knew who was going to win based on the weather forecast. Participation slowly dropped as confidence in the handicap fell off in locations that were predominantly windy (east coast) or light air (great lakes). In response, a wind speed variable was built into the handicap system to ensure fairer scoring in each individual race. The handicap changes slightly for each boat thru the wind range.

The same problem exists in sailplane racing but still only one handicap applies regardless of the day having an average speed of 35 mph or 90 mph! Depending on the contest location, gliders of certain performance ranges will have significant advantages over many others. If you have a Libelle, you are looking for certain conditions. If you have an ASW-27, your hoping for another condition. The good news is that soaring has a far more objective variable to utilize for handicap tuning, average task speed of the top pilots!

In my opinion, trying to handicap a 126 vs. an ASW-25 with one handicap is next to impossible. The gliders are flying thru massively different area's and conditions on each racing day. Mix in MAT tasking, no AT's and you have something that is highly subjective, susceptible to luck and vastly different from the FAI rules of the World Championship. It is just to broad to fairly manage the dynamics of racing a very low performance glider vs. a very high performance glider. So, splitting into narrower handicap ranges is a great improvement! Having average speed dependent variable handicapping would be another...

Back to the best pilot. At the 2012 Sports Class Nationals (Parowan, UT) DJ flew a glider well above the FAI Club Class handicap range (Ventus 2cx-15) in a location which produced very high average speeds. In a location like Parowan, a high performance glider spends considerable time within its ideal polar range relative to older "FAI club level" gliders (running speeds of 100 mph+). DJ won the 2012 Sports Class Nationals by 105 points over 2nd (ASW-20), and 142 over 3rd (Duo Discus). An impressive feat although it all came down to the final flying day. Regardless, daily winning speeds were incredibly fast for nearly the entire week:

Day 1: 61 mph - Day 2: 91 mph - Day 3: 92 mph - Day 4: 85 mph - Day 5: 85 mph - Day 6: 85 mph - Day 7: 88 mph

If we are talking about who is the "best" US pilot to fly in the Club Class World Championships I fear that there is still tremendous room for debate. That is the problem.

The closer we get to the rules of the Club Class World Championship (or any other World Championship), the better prepared the pilot we send as the US representative will be. And the more satisfied the other pilots will be that the best pilot has been selected.

  #16  
Old November 21st 12, 07:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Taylor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

Sean,

I think you bring up good points. I think part of the concern is valid for all classes, not just Sports. The new rules will help to split out the club class gliders into their own group for tasking. I was on the task committee at Parown and we always focused on the PW5 to set the task. Would have been nice to be able to set speed tasks for the narrower club class range..

I flew a Standard Jantar 2 in 2010 and paid the price on windy days with big holes. As we saw this year the smart pilots brought higher performance ships to get club class team points. Current system requires multiple ships if you are a serious club class pilot for the conditions expected. A strong 15m for west and a good Standard class ship on the east coast.

I think we need rules forcing more speed tasks in all nationals. TAT are interesting, but AST's teach a set of skills the top pilots need as well of international flying.

TT


  #17  
Old November 21st 12, 07:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,124
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 11:08:48 AM UTC-5, Sean F (F2) wrote:
I was not aware of that limitation on Worlds Qualification. That is, if what you are saying is true, a really bad rule. I agree 100% that the "best" pilots should be sent to the World Championships. That results in dynasty (same pilot every year ala Kawa), but that is what being a "Champion" is all about. Clearly Doug is an outstanding pilot. No debate there... That said, definitively stating that DJ or KS or HA or R are the "best" under our US Sports Class rule system (assuming the goal is sending the best pilot to the Club Class World Championships) is a very, very interesting discussion.


There was a limitation for a number of years that kept many previous US Team members from being on the Club class team. That, and the limitation of gliders that could be used in team selection, was intended to give the "little guys" one class where they could get a leg up and get world championship experience.
The hope was to jump start the team from the bottom up. If someone thinks they have a chance( even if it is and illusion, given the other good pilots in the class), maybe they will give it a try.
This exercise in social engineering did not succeed, and was eliminated. Personally I was dissapointed that only a couple people, RW being one, took the opportunity presented.
A little background FWIW
UH
  #18  
Old November 21st 12, 07:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Evan Ludeman[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 484
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 10:14:48 AM UTC-5, wrote:

This petition offers valid feedback.


I think a lot of us are thinking "No, it just stirs the pot".

The RC is proposing a new US racing class.


Not really. They are extending what's been tried and proven at the regional level to a Nationals.


This is not about team selection or WGC preparation.


I call BS. Exhibit "A" for the prosecution is your use of the word "Nationals" in your "petition".

If I wanted to sell a (nearly) pure IGC rules CC in the US, this is what I would do:

1. Study the rules until I had 'em cold. Determine what, if anything, absolutely had to be adjusted for US use. Determine what, if anything, might be *desirably* adjusted for US use, without compromising the essential character of the race I was trying to create.

2. Figure out how to support the CD and scorer.

3. Find a site and a sponsor, sell them. Find a CD and scorer, sell them.

4. With all that in hand, or at least well on the way, sell the RC on granting me a waiver for a *regional or super regional* contest. Be ready for the inevitable discussion of rules, safety implications and so forth. Concentrate really, really hard on what is *most* important and try earnestly to capture that in the inevitable compromise. Be prepared to negotiate everything else as needed to make it work.

Because you give evidence of having done almost none of the foregoing, people aren't taking you seriously. Because you are instead publicly poking at serious, thoughtful, hard working VOLUNTEERS who make this sport what it is, you are generating a lot of ill will. Because you are trying to re-engineer a Nationals contest without giving evidence of having thought through the ramifications of running contests in parallel with dramatically different start, finish & scoring requirements and you haven't come forward with any explanation of how this might be done, you look rather naive.

Constructively,

Evan Ludeman / T8


  #19  
Old November 22nd 12, 03:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 47
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

Because you are instead publicly poking at serious, thoughtful, hard working VOLUNTEERS who make this sport what it is, you are generating a lot of ill will. Because you are trying to re-engineer a Nationals contest without giving evidence of having thought through the ramifications of running contests in parallel with dramatically different start, finish & scoring requirements and you haven't come forward with any explanation of how this might be done, you look rather naive.

Constructively,

Evan Ludeman / T8


I applaud the RC on their hard work. There is no doubt these volunteers have spent many hours in serious thought giving us our sport as we see it today. No poking is implied or intended here.

It's understood the scorer would have two scoring programs, one FAI one US Rules. It's reasonably manageable.

Perhaps I'm naive in asking this question. Please help out with explaining how "dramatically" different start and finish might adversely impact a contest site hosting FAI and US Rules classes?

Sean Franke

  #20  
Old November 22nd 12, 02:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Evan Ludeman[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 484
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 9:14:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Because you are instead publicly poking at serious, thoughtful, hard working VOLUNTEERS who make this sport what it is, you are generating a lot of ill will. Because you are trying to re-engineer a Nationals contest without giving evidence of having thought through the ramifications of running contests in parallel with dramatically different start, finish & scoring requirements and you haven't come forward with any explanation of how this might be done, you look rather naive.



Constructively,




Evan Ludeman / T8




I applaud the RC on their hard work. There is no doubt these volunteers have spent many hours in serious thought giving us our sport as we see it today. No poking is implied or intended here.



It's understood the scorer would have two scoring programs, one FAI one US Rules. It's reasonably manageable.



Perhaps I'm naive in asking this question. Please help out with explaining how "dramatically" different start and finish might adversely impact a contest site hosting FAI and US Rules classes?



Sean Franke


If that's all you can find to nitpick, then I guess the rest of the message found it's mark?

The way I see it, *if* we ran American Sports next to FAI CC at Mifflin (which we won't), we'd more or less double the admin load. That's a solvable problem (maybe a second scorer / assistant CD, whatever). But the point is, our normal process is to try out the bright ideas at the regional level and develop a base of experience that can be shared when it's time to run a Nationals.

Personally, I'm real curious to see how shutting out the "killer bees" (that would be ASW-20Bs, Ventus Bs, LS-6Bs) and their kin is going to help participation. The best evidence available so far suggests that it could reduce participation by about 25% (I'm looking at R9 the last couple years). Again, the better environment to sort this out is at the regional level.

Good luck.

T8, out.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Club Class Nationals 5 ugly Soaring 37 September 24th 10 03:27 AM
US 15 Meters Nationals and Region V South Club Class [email protected] Soaring 0 March 12th 09 04:59 PM
Establishing Club Class/Too Many Nationals/Not Enough Competitors Tim[_2_] Soaring 14 October 2nd 08 03:34 PM
AUS Club Class Nationals Overall Results Mal Soaring 0 January 27th 06 10:55 AM
UK Open Class and Club Class Nationals - Lasham Steve Dutton Soaring 0 August 6th 03 10:07 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.