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Nimbus 4DT accident 31 July 2000 in Spain.



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 20th 05, 10:46 PM
W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).
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Default Nimbus 4DT accident 31 July 2000 in Spain.

The Spanish authorities have now published their report on the accident to
the UK registered Nimbus 4DT which crashed on 31st July 2000 near Toledo,
one of the British crew was killed.

The Spanish report in English translation may be found at
http://www.gliding.co.uk/accidents/r...s4dtreport.pdf (3MB).

The BGA report is at
http://www.gliding.co.uk/accidents/d...dentSummary=67 .
If this will not open, go to http://www.gliding.co.uk/accidents/login.php ,
Username user, Password risingmoon.

The similar accident to a Nimbus 4DM at Minden on 13th July 1999 ref:
LAX99MA251 may be found at http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2002/AAB0206.htm
brief report is at
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...12X19310&key=1 .

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.



  #2  
Old June 20th 05, 11:28 PM
Stefan
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Default

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). wrote:

The Spanish report in English translation may be found at
http://www.gliding.co.uk/accidents/r...s4dtreport.pdf (3MB).


Thanks for the link. Very educational, indeed. I think this answers the
question whether spins and spiral dives should be demonstrated and
recovery should be regularly trained.

Stefan
  #3  
Old June 21st 05, 09:55 AM
M B
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Default

Neither this report nor the Minden report it references
mentions anything about the ASI installed.

Were they the wrap-around types which cause
the pilot to not know if the glider is in a spin or
a spiral?

I personally have been in a spiral in a glider, and
not knowing it was a spin or spiral, have done the

spin recovery. Fortunately the glider performance
was low enough this wasn't a problem.

To verify this, I replicated the same situation twice
more
on the same flight. It was surprising how little
onformation I could get through windspeed noise.
I was relying on the ASI, and it was ambiguously
reading either 30kts or 100kts.

Only after landing and seeing the GPS info did I fully
believe that I was spiralling, and not spinning, even
though
I watched the ASI go only from 'fast' to 'really fast.'

Are these gliders regularly installed with
the wrap-around type ASIs? Could 1.8 seconds of confusion
be a contributing factor in these cases?

Of course, assume for the moment that the translation
to
english is awkward and the mention of 'spin' may
be mistranslated...

Has anyone else on this group ever looked at a
wrap-around ASI and wondered what it said?

Have you tried this with students, having them close
their eyes and violently shake their heads and then

try to recover the glider in an unusual attitude?
And have them get confused?

I certainly see the value of the wrap-around ASI and
the added precision it allows during normal flight,
but
I'm not terribly fond of them for spin vs.
spiral recognition. I don't trust my hearing as
an airspeed indicator during stressful situations.

At 22:42 20 June 2005, Stefan wrote:
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). wrote:

The Spanish report in English translation may be found
at
http://www.gliding.co.uk/accidents/r...s4dtreport.pdf
(3MB).


Thanks for the link. Very educational, indeed. I think
this answers the
question whether spins and spiral dives should be demonstrated
and
recovery should be regularly trained.

Stefan

Mark J. Boyd


  #4  
Old June 21st 05, 10:01 AM
Stefan
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Posts: n/a
Default

M B wrote:

Neither this report nor the Minden report it references
mentions anything about the ASI installed.

Were they the wrap-around types which cause
the pilot to not know if the glider is in a spin or
a spiral?


I understand you're an instructor? I shudder at the thought that a
licensed pilot, let alone an instructor would rely on the ASI to tell
whether he's in a spin or a spiral.

Stefan
  #5  
Old June 21st 05, 12:30 PM
HL Falbaum
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Posts: n/a
Default

Yes, indeed. If anything, the spiral dive recovery is more critical from a
structural standpoint. A modern glider is more likely to progress to spiral
dive anyway. The pilot, by his own admission, did the wrong recovery for
either case.

However, since the Spanish report refers heavily to the Minden report, with
many similarities, I wonder if there is something peculiar about the Nimbus
4 DT. Both apparently departed into a stall and incipient spin in a strong
thermal. This pilot had sufficient recent flight experience, and total time,
to have developed good "survival" reflexes, including the "stick forward"
manuver. He had little time in the Nimbus 4, but quite enough in the Nimbus
3 to know how to fly it.

If it was purely the fault of very strong thermals, then the other gliders
in common use at places like Minden would also have similar accidents. This
does not seem to be the case.

Obviously, I have never flown a Nimbus of any kind. I have a few hours in
the Duo-Discus, but nothing larger. The Duo is certainly not malignant in
any way.

So my question is to those with Nimbus D experience. Is there some handling
characteristic that will bite a fairly experinced and competent, but
unsuspecting pilot?

I am thinking that the (biennial USA) Flight Review should include spiral
dive recovery routinely, in addition to the usual other "emergency"
maneuvers.
--
Hartley Falbaum
CFIG USA


"Stefan" wrote in message
...
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). wrote:

The Spanish report in English translation may be found at
http://www.gliding.co.uk/accidents/r...s4dtreport.pdf (3MB).


Thanks for the link. Very educational, indeed. I think this answers the
question whether spins and spiral dives should be demonstrated and
recovery should be regularly trained.

Stefan



  #6  
Old June 21st 05, 12:37 PM
Mark Wright
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Please tell me that this posting is a wind up !

At 09:12 21 June 2005, M B wrote:
Neither this report nor the Minden report it references
mentions anything about the ASI installed.

Were they the wrap-around types which cause
the pilot to not know if the glider is in a spin or
a spiral?

I personally have been in a spiral in a glider, and
not knowing it was a spin or spiral, have done the

spin recovery. Fortunately the glider performance
was low enough this wasn't a problem.

To verify this, I replicated the same situation twice
more
on the same flight. It was surprising how little
onformation I could get through windspeed noise.
I was relying on the ASI, and it was ambiguously
reading either 30kts or 100kts.

Only after landing and seeing the GPS info did I fully
believe that I was spiralling, and not spinning, even
though
I watched the ASI go only from 'fast' to 'really fast.'

Are these gliders regularly installed with
the wrap-around type ASIs? Could 1.8 seconds of confusion
be a contributing factor in these cases?

Of course, assume for the moment that the translation
to
english is awkward and the mention of 'spin' may
be mistranslated...

Has anyone else on this group ever looked at a
wrap-around ASI and wondered what it said?

Have you tried this with students, having them close
their eyes and violently shake their heads and then

try to recover the glider in an unusual attitude?
And have them get confused?

I certainly see the value of the wrap-around ASI and
the added precision it allows during normal flight,
but
I'm not terribly fond of them for spin vs.
spiral recognition. I don't trust my hearing as
an airspeed indicator during stressful situations.





  #7  
Old June 21st 05, 12:39 PM
Mark Wright
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Please tell me that this posting is a wind up !

At 09:12 21 June 2005, M B wrote:
Neither this report nor the Minden report it references
mentions anything about the ASI installed.

Were they the wrap-around types which cause
the pilot to not know if the glider is in a spin or
a spiral?

I personally have been in a spiral in a glider, and
not knowing it was a spin or spiral, have done the

spin recovery. Fortunately the glider performance
was low enough this wasn't a problem.

To verify this, I replicated the same situation twice
more
on the same flight. It was surprising how little
onformation I could get through windspeed noise.
I was relying on the ASI, and it was ambiguously
reading either 30kts or 100kts.

Only after landing and seeing the GPS info did I fully
believe that I was spiralling, and not spinning, even
though
I watched the ASI go only from 'fast' to 'really fast.'

Are these gliders regularly installed with
the wrap-around type ASIs? Could 1.8 seconds of confusion
be a contributing factor in these cases?

Of course, assume for the moment that the translation
to
english is awkward and the mention of 'spin' may
be mistranslated...

Has anyone else on this group ever looked at a
wrap-around ASI and wondered what it said?

Have you tried this with students, having them close
their eyes and violently shake their heads and then

try to recover the glider in an unusual attitude?
And have them get confused?

I certainly see the value of the wrap-around ASI and
the added precision it allows during normal flight,
but
I'm not terribly fond of them for spin vs.
spiral recognition. I don't trust my hearing as
an airspeed indicator during stressful situations.





  #8  
Old June 21st 05, 01:53 PM
Don Johnstone
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I don't think it is.

from the accident report
The pilot realized that they had started to spin and
that, in order to come out of the spin, he pulled back
hard on the control stick and applied full flaps, without
regaining control (no surprise there then)..........the
glider quickly gathered speed (?)....and the flaps
got heavier and heavier.
....the flap position was 2 deg positive.

I fly an ASW17 and in my conversion brief I was told
that the first action is spin recovery was flaps to
neutral. If this action was not carried out then recovery
was not certain. It would appear from the exerpt from
the Nimbus manual that the same applied. It is to be
hoped that some of the above passage is the result
of iffy translation, if not it is a very strange sequence
of events.

The report conclusions do not help. I am no expert
on the 4DM but is it possible to exceed VNe in a spin?

At 11:54 21 June 2005, Mark Wright wrote:
Please tell me that this posting is a wind up !

At 09:12 21 June 2005, M B wrote:
Neither this report nor the Minden report it references
mentions anything about the ASI installed.

Were they the wrap-around types which cause
the pilot to not know if the glider is in a spin or
a spiral?

I personally have been in a spiral in a glider, and
not knowing it was a spin or spiral, have done the

spin recovery. Fortunately the glider performance
was low enough this wasn't a problem.

To verify this, I replicated the same situation twice
more
on the same flight. It was surprising how little
onformation I could get through windspeed noise.
I was relying on the ASI, and it was ambiguously
reading either 30kts or 100kts.

Only after landing and seeing the GPS info did I fully
believe that I was spiralling, and not spinning, even
though
I watched the ASI go only from 'fast' to 'really fast.'

Are these gliders regularly installed with
the wrap-around type ASIs? Could 1.8 seconds of confusion
be a contributing factor in these cases?

Of course, assume for the moment that the translation
to
english is awkward and the mention of 'spin' may
be mistranslated...

Has anyone else on this group ever looked at a
wrap-around ASI and wondered what it said?

Have you tried this with students, having them close
their eyes and violently shake their heads and then

try to recover the glider in an unusual attitude?
And have them get confused?

I certainly see the value of the wrap-around ASI and
the added precision it allows during normal flight,
but
I'm not terribly fond of them for spin vs.
spiral recognition. I don't trust my hearing as
an airspeed indicator during stressful situations.









  #9  
Old June 21st 05, 02:08 PM
Stefan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Don Johnstone wrote:

It is to be
hoped that some of the above passage is the result
of iffy translation, if not it is a very strange sequence
of events.


Perfectly correct translation. No strange sequence at all.

The report conclusions do not help. I am no expert


Yes, they do. Know your airplane, know the emergency procedures and
particlarly know its behaviour in regading to spins. Practice spin
recoveries, practice spiral dive recoveries. And any pilot who is even
tempted to pull back the stick in a spin is not airworthy.

on the 4DM but is it possible to exceed VNe in a spin?


Certainly not. But many gliders will not stay in the spin but go into a
spiral dive. Which was obviously the case here.

Stefan
  #10  
Old June 21st 05, 02:11 PM
Stefan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Don Johnstone wrote:

It is to be
hoped that some of the above passage is the result
of iffy translation, if not it is a very strange sequence
of events.


Perfectly correct translation. No strange sequence at all.

The report conclusions do not help. I am no expert


Yes, they do. Know your airplane, know the emergency procedures and
particlarly know its behaviour in regading to spins. Practice spin
recoveries, practice spiral dive recoveries. And any pilot who is even
remotely tempted to pull back the stick in a spin is not airworthy.

on the 4DM but is it possible to exceed VNe in a spin?


Certainly not. But many gliders will not stay in the spin but go into a
spiral dive. Which was obviously the case here.

Stefan
 




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