Compare/Contrast: CG hook on aerotow vs. CG hook on winch

I've been told (and witnessed) that aerotow on CG hook is initially difficult for someone who has trained for aerotow with a "nose hook" (aka hook-forward-of-CG). Suppose this CG-hook-newbie were to take winch tow training (with CG hook). Would the winch training reduce the initial difficulty of a CG hook aerotow?

Do the difficulties/danger of aerotow with CG hook go away completely with training and experience?

What sorts of misadventures are reasonably attributed to aerotow on CG hook?

I understand why CG hook is superior for winch tow. No need to rehash that explanation.

On Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:54:00 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
I've been told (and witnessed) that aerotow on CG hook is initially difficult for someone who has trained for aerotow with a "nose hook" (aka hook-forward-of-CG). Suppose this CG-hook-newbie were to take winch tow training (with CG hook). Would the winch training reduce the initial difficulty of a CG hook aerotow?

Do the difficulties/danger of aerotow with CG hook go away completely with training and experience?

What sorts of misadventures are reasonably attributed to aerotow on CG hook?

I understand why CG hook is superior for winch tow. No need to rehash that explanation.

There is increased risk that come from the directional squirliness. Can you reduce this with training. Sure. Can you eliminate any risk, no. Can you reduce it enough to feel comfortable. Maybe, but that is a personal risk decision, not something somebody else can tell you. But I've seen a few departures to the weeds with folks aerotowing with a CG hook. The attention getting ones involve crosswinds and narrow strips and/or tall grass... ending in ground loops. That cross wind handling, need to be ready to quick release etc. should be things to look at with an instructor.

Its not clear what you are flying or where, but some flight manuals do prohibit aerotowing with a CG hook (e.g. my ASH-26E does).

Darryl

On May 24, 8:54*pm, son_of_flubber wrote:
I've been told (and witnessed) that aerotow on CG hook is initially difficult for someone who has trained for aerotow with a "nose hook" (aka hook-forward-of-CG). *Suppose this CG-hook-newbie were to take winch tow training (with CG hook). *Would the winch training reduce the initial difficulty of a CG hook aerotow?

Do the difficulties/danger of aerotow with CG hook go away completely with training and experience?

What sorts of misadventures are reasonably attributed to aerotow on CG hook?

I understand why CG hook is superior for winch tow. *No need to rehash that explanation.

Most glass two seat trainers (Grob, ASK-21, etc.) have both nose and
CG hooks so you can arrange to get some flight instruction in one aero
towing with the CG hook. Some countries prohibit aero tow with CG
hooks or require special training to do so. I can't say that 100% of
the dangers go away with training and experience but very nearly so.

I think winch training will improve any pilot - sometimes
substantially and not just with a CG hook.

For pilots trained on aero tow, the main danger with a CG hook is a
ground loop on the takeoff roll - a nose hook tends to keep the glider
rolling straight if a wing drops but the effect is small. If seen
many if not more ground loops with nose hooks.

A glider aero towing with a CG hook can easily climb above the tug
creating a very dangerous situation for the tug pilot but these upsets
happened primarily to pilots who had mostly winch experience and
little aero tow experience. It's as easy to stay in position behind
the tug but you have to be aware of the need to do so - you have to
really fly formation on the tug. The rope will not pull you back into
position.

On 5/24/2012 7:54 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
I've been told (and witnessed) that aerotow on CG hook is initially
difficult for someone who has trained for aerotow with a "nose hook"
(aka hook-forward-of-CG). Suppose this CG-hook-newbie were to take
winch tow training (with CG hook). Would the winch training reduce
the initial difficulty of a CG hook aerotow?

No, and I suggest it may make you worse at aerotowing, because you learn
to put the glider in a steep climb. "Kiting" on tow is a bad problem;
"kiting" during a winch launch is normal operation.


Do the difficulties/danger of aerotow with CG hook go away completely
with training and experience?

No, but you can significantly reduce the risks with training and experience.

What sorts of misadventures are reasonably attributed to aerotow on
CG hook?

The worst is the increased potential for the aforementioned kiting; the
rest tend to happen on the ground with a chance for damage, but not less
risk to people.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On May 24, 10:18*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 5/24/2012 7:54 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:

No, and I suggest it may make you worse at aerotowing, because you learn
to put the glider in a steep climb. "Kiting" on tow is a bad problem;
"kiting" during a winch launch is normal operation.

A pilot would have to be pretty stupid to let that happen. (Learning
is where you ADD knowledge - not replace what was already there.)
Learn winch launch - you WILL become a better pilot.

On 5/25/2012 7:31 AM, Bill D wrote:
On May 24, 10:18 pm, Eric wrote:
On 5/24/2012 7:54 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:

No, and I suggest it may make you worse at aerotowing, because you learn
to put the glider in a steep climb. "Kiting" on tow is a bad problem;
"kiting" during a winch launch is normal operation.

A pilot would have to be pretty stupid to let that happen. (Learning
is where you ADD knowledge - not replace what was already there.)
Learn winch launch - you WILL become a better pilot.

Stupid, or poorly trained, or confused in an emergency. Still, I'm not
aware that learning winch launching in any way prepares you for aero
tow. The attitude and sight picture is entirely different, and you
aren't flying formation. I've done mostly aerotows and some auto tows,
and my experience was handling the glider took a different set of
skills. A notable difference is the auto launch was easier as long as
every thing went right - it took far less corrections compared to the
aero tow.

Learning to do winch launches so you are capable of doing winch launches
is an excellent reason, but I think it's a waste of time if your goal is
learning to do aerotow with a CG hook. The winch launch simply doesn't
challenge the pilot in the same way a CG hook aero tow does.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Originally Posted by Eric Greenwell[_4_]

On 5/25/2012 7:31 AM, Bill D wrote:
On May 24, 10:18 pm, Eric wrote:
On 5/24/2012 7:54 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:

No, and I suggest it may make you worse at aerotowing, because you learn
to put the glider in a steep climb. "Kiting" on tow is a bad problem;
"kiting" during a winch launch is normal operation.

A pilot would have to be pretty stupid to let that happen. (Learning
is where you ADD knowledge - not replace what was already there.)
Learn winch launch - you WILL become a better pilot.

Stupid, or poorly trained, or confused in an emergency. Still, I'm not
aware that learning winch launching in any way prepares you for aero
tow. The attitude and sight picture is entirely different, and you
aren't flying formation. I've done mostly aerotows and some auto tows,
and my experience was handling the glider took a different set of
skills. A notable difference is the auto launch was easier as long as
every thing went right - it took far less corrections compared to the
aero tow.

Learning to do winch launches so you are capable of doing winch launches
is an excellent reason, but I think it's a waste of time if your goal is
learning to do aerotow with a CG hook. The winch launch simply doesn't
challenge the pilot in the same way a CG hook aero tow does.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Agree. About the only thing winching could teach you, that you could take to aerotow, is a strong pull on the cable attached to the belly hook will tend to pitch the nose up.

With that small caveat I don't think that anything you learn from winch launching can prepare you for learning aerotow (tethered formation flying) from either a belly or a nose hook

Cheers
Colin

On Friday, 25 May 2012 03:54:00 UTC+1, son_of_flubber wrote:
I've been told (and witnessed) that aerotow on CG hook is initially difficult for someone who has trained for aerotow with a "nose hook" (aka hook-forward-of-CG). Suppose this CG-hook-newbie were to take winch tow training (with CG hook). Would the winch training reduce the initial difficulty of a CG hook aerotow?

Do the difficulties/danger of aerotow with CG hook go away completely with training and experience?

What sorts of misadventures are reasonably attributed to aerotow on CG hook?

I understand why CG hook is superior for winch tow. No need to rehash that explanation.

Also, CG hooks can back release if you get a lot of slack in the rope. The manual may suggest a method for blocking the back release - make sure you remove it before winching.

On May 24, 11:05*pm, b4soaring wrote:
On Friday, 25 May 2012 03:54:00 UTC+1, son_of_flubber *wrote:

Also, CG hooks can back release if you get a lot of slack in the rope. The manual may suggest a method for blocking the back release - make sure you remove it before winching.

If the CG hook is functioning properly (i.e. no weak springs), it
would take a LOT of slack to get a back release. So much so that
you'd be in front of the tug and probably want to release anyway.
Don't mess with the hook or you might make it malfunction completely.

Uncommanded releases are not a problem.

On Friday, May 25, 2012 9:36:16 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:
On May 24, 11:05*pm, b4soaring wrote:
On Friday, 25 May 2012 03:54:00 UTC+1, son_of_flubber *wrote:

Also, CG hooks can back release if you get a lot of slack in the rope. The manual may suggest a method for blocking the back release - make sure you remove it before winching.

If the CG hook is functioning properly (i.e. no weak springs), it
would take a LOT of slack to get a back release. So much so that
you'd be in front of the tug and probably want to release anyway.
Don't mess with the hook or you might make it malfunction completely.

Uncommanded releases are not a problem.

Actually they very well can be. I was piloting an IS-28B2 Twin Lark a couple of years ago behind a Super Cub during a 175 km transfer aerotow to another airport. We had to go over a pass and coming over the pass flew straight into serious rotor off a sharp mountain ridge bordering the valley we were entering.

Keeping the glider in position behind the super cub was a handful (a Twin Lark flies a bit like tank depending on what you are used to), I did end up getting some serious slack at one point while perfectly pointed at the cub. The cable bow reached back (the bow being to the left and almost level with the glider) to about where I was sitting in the front seat of the glider when I heard the "clonk" of the back release, the very moment I was starting to get worried it might just do that while remembering that the back release was not blocked...

The Twin Lark has a non-structural nose cone and the aerotow hook mounted just in front of the front rudder pedals. It is the same Tost hook as the CG hook installed and hence back releases unless you do something about it...

I could have grabbed the released cable if it hadn't been for the canopy, it was right next to me before I banked away to avoid potential damage. The bow was never a danger to the glider and never went anywhere near the wing tip or something else it could have caught onto, so the back release was completely unwarranted in this scenario.

An uneventful outlanding in unfamiliar terrain followed since we had plenty of altitude and I had a variety of fields to choose from but it was an all-nighter to get the trailer and crew there, load up the glider in the dark and get it to the destination airport through some serious mountain roads.

I made sure with a metal angle blocking any backwards movement of the hook rim that this would not happen again...

Markus Graeber