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#21
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Quote:
Just a WAG, Squeak |
#22
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Compare/Contrast: CG hook on aerotow vs. CG hook on winch
On Jun 1, 8:59*am, Mike the Strike wrote:
I'm not sure that the advice to keep hold of the release on tow would be advisable in more turbulent environments (like Arizona) where unexpected glider movement could cause an unintended release. Mike I've had the same thought, Mike. When I take friends up for rides, I tell them to put their hand(s) on their thigh(s). That way if they make any kind of reactionary grab, they grip their leg and not an important control. I find that for myself this technique works in turbulent conditions pretty well - keep a hand on the thigh, preferrably near the release-handle. As part of my pre-takeoff checklist, I practice reaching from my thigh to the release a couple of times; so that I'm prepared in an emergency. Then I put my hand back on my thigh. (Of course, my DG-300 makes this easy by having the release-handle at the base of the panel, and I don't have any flaps to deal with - so your mileage may vary). --Noel P.S. Bill - Thanks for the compliments! I appreciate the feedback and comments that you and others have given on my various recent postings. I'm still relatively new in the sport (just hit the 5 year mark), and its nice to be able to pitch all these theories and ideas and see everyone's different opinions and points of view. Its all good food for thought. |
#23
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With that small caveat I don't think that anything you learn from winch launching can prepare you for learning aerotow (tethered formation flying) from either a belly or a nose hook Cheers Colin Last edited by Ventus_a : June 1st 12 at 10:23 PM. |
#24
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Compare/Contrast: CG hook on aerotow vs. CG hook on winch
On Jun 1, 1:04*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
On Jun 1, 8:59*am, Mike the Strike wrote: I'm not sure that the advice to keep hold of the release on tow would be advisable in more turbulent environments (like Arizona) where unexpected glider movement could cause an unintended release. Mike I've had the same thought, Mike. When I take friends up for rides, I tell them to put their hand(s) on their thigh(s). *That way if they make any kind of reactionary grab, they grip their leg and not an important control. *I find that for myself this technique works in turbulent conditions pretty well - keep a hand on the thigh, preferrably near the release-handle. *As part of my pre-takeoff checklist, I practice reaching from my thigh to the release a couple of times; so that I'm prepared in an emergency. *Then I put my hand back on my thigh. *(Of course, my DG-300 makes this easy by having the release-handle at the base of the panel, and I don't have any flaps to deal with - so your mileage may vary). --Noel P.S. *Bill - Thanks for the compliments! *I appreciate the feedback and comments that you and others have given on my various recent postings. *I'm still relatively new in the sport (just hit the 5 year mark), and its nice to be able to pitch all these theories and ideas and see everyone's different opinions and points of view. *Its all good food for thought. I teach the heel of the left hand guarding the airbrake lever. That's usually very close to the release knob. This covers two bases - open spoiler on tow and quick release. |
#25
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I transitioned from a nose-hook Blanik L-23 to my CG-hook LS1f, all on aerotow. To be honest, I don't think there is much difference on the CG hook, and I've taken off in some crosswind/gusty conditions. I'm not terribly experienced either. A buddy of mine has a CG hook on his Discus, and he had the same experience when he transitioned. Maybe some gliders are worse about weathervaning than others, but really I don't think it's as big a deal as people make it out to be.
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#26
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Compare/Contrast: CG hook on aerotow vs. CG hook on winch
On Thu, 31 May 2012 18:05:10 -0700 (PDT), "noel.wade"
wrote: 2) On liftoff - as you get rolling try to use forward-stick and stick- trim to get the tailwheel off the ground as soon as your rudder is effective. That'll give you better steering control on the remainder of takeoff *and* put the wing at a lower angle of attack (so you won't jump/kite as quickly). Hi Noel, I have to admit that I regard this technique as bad airmanship. Really bad airmanship (for example, an LS-6 will not lift off at all with that technique). Let me explain: I've often seen gliders roll behind the towplane for ages, balancing on the main wheel, creating lots of rolling drag and bouncing all over the place with each bump they hit. Usually lots of control deflections to balance crosswind (a tail wheel in the air doesn't really help to stabilize against a crosswind...), and often multiple touchdowns after the first lift off due to PIO. Sometimes I even see gliders with a pith attitude, effectively creating negative lift until the pilot decides it's time to lift off. Scary. In my opinion it's so much easier to simply lift off with tail and main wheel at the same time and let the glider float behind the tow plane - once in the air, any glider is a lot easier to control, and in my experience on grass strips the acceleration of the tow plane is significantly better. I fly from a 2000 ft grass strip where one really can see the difference in the length of the takeoff run. It doesn't make a huge difference with a light DG-300, but flying a fully ballasted open class ship or a Duo Discus the correct technique (liftoff at minimum speed) is usually the difference between the tow plane being able to lift off or not (don't ask...). One additional benefit: If the glider lifts off close to its minimum speed, control authority of the elevator is less agressive, therefore it's far less likely to overcontrol the glider and enter a PIO. Be prepared to add forward stick as you come off the ground, and don't be shy about changing your trim multiple times on the takeoff and aerotow. I'm a little bit puzzled why one should mess with the trim during aerotow. By setting the elevator trim to the recommended position for aerotow before launch (trim forward) you get a slight nose-down stick pressure on all the (German built) gliders I've flown, which in my opinion is extremely effective to prevent ballooning: The glider is a lot more likely to descent behind the tow plane if you don't pay attention for a moment. Better be too low behind the tow plane than too high. In my opinion messing with the trim during aerotow is not a good idea for an inexperienced pilot - gliders with modern trim systems like the DG-300 cannot be trimmed nose-down at all (as you have probably noticed in your 300, it needs a significant stick push which isn't the best idea if you want to keep your position behind the towplane). Make one mistake, and you have a neutrally or even nose-up trimmed glider - one further mistake and you might create brown pants in that tow plane in front of you that is just disappearing under the nose of your glider. 3) Throughout the launch and aerotow - USE YOUR FEET! Indeed. Always. And ignore that yaw string. But I again have found many newbies recently that don't think to use their feet on aerotow. Clear case of bad training. One needs to learn to actively fly the glider during an aerotow, otherwise problems are pre-programmed. Best wishes Andreas |
#27
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Compare/Contrast: CG hook on aerotow vs. CG hook on winch
At 15:59 01 June 2012, Mike the Strike wrote:
I'm not sure that the advice to keep hold of the release on tow would be advisable in more turbulent environments (like Arizona) where unexpected glider movement could cause an unintended release. Mike Should have made it clear, it is only necessary to have your hand on the release during the ground run and take off for both aerotow and winch launch, once airborne and stable you can just keep your hand near the release as normal. I use the looped paracord so I have some slack in the sytem anyway. |
#28
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Compare/Contrast: CG hook on aerotow vs. CG hook on winch
All the concern about nose vs. CG release and the correcting force of the
nose release indicates, to me, poorly trained or lazy pilots. If you will simply fly the aircraft and pay attention to your flight path, you'll find that it makes no difference what type of release you have (unless you're doing a ground launch). Do some of you actually rely on the nose release to keep the nose aligned rather than flying the aircraft? "Andreas Maurer" wrote in message ... On Thu, 31 May 2012 18:05:10 -0700 (PDT), "noel.wade" wrote: 2) On liftoff - as you get rolling try to use forward-stick and stick- trim to get the tailwheel off the ground as soon as your rudder is effective. That'll give you better steering control on the remainder of takeoff *and* put the wing at a lower angle of attack (so you won't jump/kite as quickly). Hi Noel, I have to admit that I regard this technique as bad airmanship. Really bad airmanship (for example, an LS-6 will not lift off at all with that technique). Let me explain: I've often seen gliders roll behind the towplane for ages, balancing on the main wheel, creating lots of rolling drag and bouncing all over the place with each bump they hit. Usually lots of control deflections to balance crosswind (a tail wheel in the air doesn't really help to stabilize against a crosswind...), and often multiple touchdowns after the first lift off due to PIO. Sometimes I even see gliders with a pith attitude, effectively creating negative lift until the pilot decides it's time to lift off. Scary. In my opinion it's so much easier to simply lift off with tail and main wheel at the same time and let the glider float behind the tow plane - once in the air, any glider is a lot easier to control, and in my experience on grass strips the acceleration of the tow plane is significantly better. I fly from a 2000 ft grass strip where one really can see the difference in the length of the takeoff run. It doesn't make a huge difference with a light DG-300, but flying a fully ballasted open class ship or a Duo Discus the correct technique (liftoff at minimum speed) is usually the difference between the tow plane being able to lift off or not (don't ask...). One additional benefit: If the glider lifts off close to its minimum speed, control authority of the elevator is less agressive, therefore it's far less likely to overcontrol the glider and enter a PIO. Be prepared to add forward stick as you come off the ground, and don't be shy about changing your trim multiple times on the takeoff and aerotow. I'm a little bit puzzled why one should mess with the trim during aerotow. By setting the elevator trim to the recommended position for aerotow before launch (trim forward) you get a slight nose-down stick pressure on all the (German built) gliders I've flown, which in my opinion is extremely effective to prevent ballooning: The glider is a lot more likely to descent behind the tow plane if you don't pay attention for a moment. Better be too low behind the tow plane than too high. In my opinion messing with the trim during aerotow is not a good idea for an inexperienced pilot - gliders with modern trim systems like the DG-300 cannot be trimmed nose-down at all (as you have probably noticed in your 300, it needs a significant stick push which isn't the best idea if you want to keep your position behind the towplane). Make one mistake, and you have a neutrally or even nose-up trimmed glider - one further mistake and you might create brown pants in that tow plane in front of you that is just disappearing under the nose of your glider. 3) Throughout the launch and aerotow - USE YOUR FEET! Indeed. Always. And ignore that yaw string. But I again have found many newbies recently that don't think to use their feet on aerotow. Clear case of bad training. One needs to learn to actively fly the glider during an aerotow, otherwise problems are pre-programmed. Best wishes Andreas |
#29
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Compare/Contrast: CG hook on aerotow vs. CG hook on winch
At 16:12 02 June 2012, Dan Marotta wrote:
All the concern about nose vs. CG release and the correcting force of the nose release indicates, to me, poorly trained or lazy pilots. If you will simply fly the aircraft and pay attention to your flight path, you'll find that it makes no difference what type of release you have (unless you're doing a ground launch). [snip] The concern in the UK about towing on CG hook when a nose hook is available came from tug pilot fatalities. The first, and most of the other, such accidents happened with CG hooks, and one or more of the other factors, which led to kiting, tug upset, and tug hitting the deck. As a result, the BGA issued a poster listing the 6 factors most closely associated with upsets, and advised having not more that two (IIRC) such factors on any one launch. More recently we started to have upsets again, so far fortunately without fatality. Unable to find the original poster, we issued another which had the following: ------------------- Tug Upsets These happen when the glider suddenly zooms above the tug, putting it into a steep dive requiring considerable height to recover. The BGA ran a successful campaign to end these fatalities to tug pilots, but several years without incident now appear to have ended. This year there have been two reported upsets and at least one other not reported. Fortunately none resulted in crashes. Six factors make upsets more likely:  Lightweight, low wing-loading  C of G hooks intended for winch launching  Short ropes  Inexperienced pilots  Near aft C of G.  Turbulent conditions If two of these are present the danger becomes significant. More than two should be considered unacceptable. ----------------- Chris N |
#30
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Compare/Contrast: CG hook on aerotow vs. CG hook on winch
On 6/1/2012 5:11 PM, dbrunone wrote:
I transitioned from a nose-hook Blanik L-23 to my CG-hook LS1f, all on aerotow. To be honest, I don't think there is much difference on the CG hook, and I've taken off in some crosswind/gusty conditions. I'm not terribly experienced either. A buddy of mine has a CG hook on his Discus, and he had the same experience when he transitioned. Maybe some gliders are worse about weathervaning than others, but really I don't think it's as big a deal as people make it out to be. It may depend a great deal on the glider (some get aerodynamic control sooner than others) and your launch conditions: if every launch uses an experienced wing runner, a strong towplane, and the wind is always straight down the runway, you will not notice much difference. All the nose-hook gliders (primarily H301, ASH 26 E, and ASW20C) I've flown were easier to aerotow than all the CG hook gliders (primarily Ka6e, Std Cirrus, and ASW20C) I've flown. The ASW20C was a special case: it came with a CG hook that I used for several years, then I had a nose (actually, a "forward") hook installed. It was a noticeable and significant improvement over the original CG hook. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) |
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