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  #1  
Old March 11th 16, 07:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Peter von Tresckow
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Posts: 157
Default TABS

I am hoping Darry will chime in here. At the convention I attended the FAA
ADS-b presentation and spoke at length with the FAA reps (who were well
versed in the technical aspects). The odd remark that stood out to me that
they never quite angered was that TABS aircraft wouldn't have "separation
services" provided.

From what I could gather that meant that while a TABS device would be fully
participating I. The ADS-b scheme, you would still not gain access to the
class A/B/C and E above 10000' airspace. I have been looking around for
more info on this, but the whole TABS thing is still very vague.

I would appreciate any substantiated knowledgable response ;-)

Pete
  #2  
Old March 11th 16, 09:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,403
Default TABS

On Friday, March 11, 2016 at 10:40:08 AM UTC-8, vontresc wrote:
I am hoping Darry will chime in here. At the convention I attended the FAA
ADS-b presentation and spoke at length with the FAA reps (who were well
versed in the technical aspects). The odd remark that stood out to me that
they never quite angered was that TABS aircraft wouldn't have "separation
services" provided.

From what I could gather that meant that while a TABS device would be fully
participating I. The ADS-b scheme, you would still not gain access to the
class A/B/C and E above 10000' airspace. I have been looking around for
more info on this, but the whole TABS thing is still very vague.

I would appreciate any substantiated knowledgable response ;-)

Pete


Pete

TABS was not intended to fully replace transponders and ADS-B Out and to interact with ATC at the same presumed level of performance/reliability etc. as full transponder and ADS-B Out systems do.. but in practice it should be very close, if installs are well done (we'll have to see the install/test regulations).

A very important intent of TABS/TSO-C199C was to enable gliders and similar aircraft to fly above 10,000' and especially to interact there with TCAS systems. Thats some of the top down drivers for all this from the NTSB that the FAA is responding to. So no, worrying about above 10,000' is a red herring.

TABS ADS-B output will also be seen on all certified and non-certifed ADS-B In systems (1090ES direct or via ADS-R to UAT) and (less interesting in reality) and the lower-cost GPS source part of a TABS device is good enough that it is intended to enable a TABS equipped aircraft to receive ADS-R and TIS-B client services (which you can no longer just get with any old GPS source driving ADS-B Out in say an experimental aircraft. Unfortunately today most gliders have no ADS-B In receiver capable of receiving those ADS-R or TIS-B services--and I don't really care about TIS-B loner term, but I do care about ADS-R being likely important as a part of any traffic awareness/display system.).

As to flying a glider *into* class A, B or C airspace, that is a whole different story and yes I would not assume that a TABS complaint systems would necessarily provide that capability and there may be good techncial reasons for that (e.g. visibility of TABS aircraft (with their lower-power output) to ATC in some locations), and maybe some uh political ones (if one group of aircraft gets to do most stuff on TABS, everybody is going to want TABS....hello AOPA calling...). We'll have to wait and see the regulations. I think the only folks affected with be the big-boys flying in Class A airspace with block IFR assignments. Worse case they may require a fully compliant ADS-B Out system, just as today they are flying with transponders, and arguing against that is a bit difficult and probably counter productive. If gliders lose their transponders and ADS-B Out exemption and TABS regulations are added then I would hope/expect flight in wave windows would be possible with TABS devices. And I personally would be happy to see that as a requirement. ATC is technically not providing "separation services" today in those windows. Something good for the SSA and others to be talking to the FAA about.

As for more specifics you would have to ask the FAA. I would be disappointed for example if a glider equipped with TABS could not obtain flight following, and there are FAA staff who would likely feel the same. As for wether they are counting that as separation services or not in this context I don't know.

Cheers

Darryl

 




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