2 recent incidents

On Jun 26, 9:12*am, Marc Ramsey wrote:
jb92563 wrote:
It takes a bit of time to learn and mistakes WILL be made but that is
no reason to throw out the
standard signals becasue of a few.

Rudder waggle wasn't a standard signal when I learned. *During my first
decade of flying (70s), rudder waggle was commonly used by tow pilots
with newbies (like myself) to suggest a point of release.

Of the 10,000+ glider pilots I am sure only a couple dozen have
released on rudder waggles.

I've done it, and I knew (in theory, anyway, what the signal was
supposed to mean). *Grob 103, spoiler not properly secured at takeoff
(my bad), spoilers crept open during climb out, no dramatic sounds,
buffeting, etc. *I could tell the tow wasn't going right as we tuned at
about 300 feet, continued slow climb rate as the tow pilot made a big
sweeping back towards the airport. *When we got back over the airport at
1000 ft, he wagged the rudder, and I, fulling expecting to be rocked off
at any moment, pulled the release. *The tow plane shot up like a rocket,
a light bulb lit up in my brain, and I looked back to see the spoilers
hanging out in the breeze. *I think it clear what would have happened
had I been wagged at 300 feet.

Thats 0.24%, and completely insignificant justification to change
anything but the rigor of those few pilots training who are
having problems.

I bet it's a lot more than 0.24%, I know of more than one tow pilot that
is very careful where they use this signal, from experience.

We should start a thread on Pilot Mistakes, and you can be sure there
will be 1000 hr pilots making entires there as well.

I had 1200 hours at the time.

Marc

Thanks Marc for sharing your experience. I think we all capable of
making this mistake, even if we will practice the rudder waggle every
BFR. Even instructors can get it wrong, we just lost one couple of
years ago at Minden for the exact same thing. What concerns me as you
can see from the thread is that many don't think it is an issue, and I
am sure many tow pilots are not aware of the risk as well. Also I am
still amazed to find tow planes without operating radio. This should
not be allowed.

Ramy

"Bob Whelan" wrote in message
p...
jb92563 wrote:
As I think about it, it might be best if there was a single array of
high output LEDs. Details snipped...

Other thoughts?

People will misunderstand lights just as easily as a rudder waggle.

Its a training issue and they just need to know what the signal means
by practice.

Details snipped...

Lights fail, radios fail, tow plane electircal systems fail and a Wag
or a Rock will still communicate with a glider on tow.

The signal system works just fine, its just that the receivers of the
signal are learning something new to them and sometimes
mistakes are made.

We should start a thread on Pilot Mistakes, and you can be sure there
will be 1000 hr pilots making entires there as well.

Ray

Panacea fixes...what a panacea it would be if a few of them actually
worked. (WARNING: Dry humor nearby.)

Some pertinent realities...
- Perfection is never an option.
- Panacea fixes aren't.
- Thought processes matter.
- Training is good, too.

Here's a thought process that has worked for me...so far. Being fairly
simple-minded, I struggle with remembering rules for rules' sake. I
compensate by a reasonably decent ability to remember WHY certain
rules/guidelines/suggestions exist...and I seek to prioritize things I DO
remember. (I care little about remembering trivia; I care a LOT about
remembering 'important stuff.')

Here's a couple of soaring examples:
1) Visual tow signals (work all the time, unless being towed in [*really*]
hard IFR) - In life and death terms, a strong argument can be made that
only one need be remembered, the wing-rock signal. None of the others are
indicative of (immediately) life-threatening (to you or the tuggie)
situations.

Can't remember what a rudder waggle (or any other
arcane/new/untrained-for/yet-to-be-devised) signal is for? No problem!
It's NOT the dreaded wing-rock...so no precipitate action is necessary.
Heck, you could even turn on the radio and ask, if your Embarrassment
Quotient hasn't been exceeded on that particular tow.

2) Landing pattern mistakes - THE one boo-boo practically guaranteed to
kill you in a landing pattern is the inadvertent stall/spin. I deal with
that not by trying to remember all of the books'-worth of advice out there
(mostly useful and sensible and germane), but by a combinatorial thought
approach: a) Kid(s) - don't DO that (i.e. the inadvertent uncoordinated
pattern stall)!!! b) Pay attention to Rule a).

Everything else rule-based falls out in the wash...requisite pattern
speed, requisite pattern coordination, requisite pattern pattern, etc...

3) Soaring-in-general - Soaring is real safe as long as you don't hit
anything (hidden assumption...that you don't want to hit).

For what it's worth, I can't recall learning any of the above from any of
my (generally excellent) instructors (and the comment is not intended to
be in any way derogatory or condescending). Nevertheless, I'm happy with
the (36-year) results-to-date. I did yank off on my (sole) wing-rock
received. I haven't inadvertently stalled in the pattern. I haven't
inadvertently hit anything I wasn't already intentionally aiming at.

Nor have I (yet) seen a rudder waggle...but if I DO see one, I'm pretty
certain I'm not going to yank off for mis-interpretational reasons...

Respectfully,
Bob - VRAM-limited - W.As usual, Bob

As usual, Bob's views are sensible and entertaining.

As a slight fork of this thread, what happened to "guarding" the spoiler
handle? For as long as I can remember, I've positioned my left hand so it
will block spoilers opening on takeoff. (It works, I've caught a few
students attempting takeoffs with the spoilers unlocked.) That position is
also near the release knob which can be useful in student takeoffs.

As a further fork, when I owned an IS28b2 Lark, the little blue plastic
spheres that served as spoiler knobs disintegrated. I searched the Internet
for a replacement and found blue anodized gearshift knobs at AutoZone - two
to the bubble pack. (Why would anyone want two gearshift knobs?) Anyway,
they fit perfectly and looked really cool.

Except that on a winch launch, the acceleration would cause the heavy
gearshift knobs to unlock the spoilers - oops! The aluminum knobs got
replaced with custom made plastic ones.

Final thought, if you are going to undertake winch launch, learn to lock the
spoilers as part of the cockpit check - there's nobody up front to offer a
helpful signal.

Bill D

Ramy wrote:
Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
learn from them:

1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
- How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...03X00777&key=1

2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
caused more accidents then we know of.
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...06X00809&key=1

Ramy


I favor the rudder waggle because it works IF the pilot is and remains
properly
trained.
I was not involved in this pilot's training and I did not witness
the accident but I spoke to the involved pilot within 2 hours of the
event. This pilot, with a Commercial Glider certificate, admitted that he
misinterpreted the rudder waggle (confused it with the rock off). This
seems to be a common
mistake in our sport. It is likely that on the day that he received his
Commercial Glider rating he would not have made this error but
subsequent training, the Flight Review, plus his own personal endeavors
to remain current, if any, clearly failed.

The only mandatory review of these procedures is the flight review. I
have begun a personal vendetta against this problem not only in training
new glider pilots but during all Flight Reviews. I urge all CFIGs to
emphasize this problem and I offer a couple of suggestions...

1. During the oral, instead of discussing the check glider signal and
the rock off separately, I treat them as a pair of similar signals
which must be considered together to appreciate the distinction between
them.
2. Just as we tell our students that a rope break or rock off can
happen on any flight, I stress that a check glider signal can also
occur on any flight and to be ready for all three on every launch.
3. Show the student both signals on the same flight. I instruct the tow
pilot to show the check glider signal at a safe altitude so if the
student releases by mistake, the recovery is not difficult. Then on the
same flight, the tow pilot rocks the glider off just below the planned
release altitude. Feedback from the students and pilots in for a BFR has
been positive, most stating that seeing both on the same flight really
underscored the difference for them.

These simple ideas are not revolutionary and you fellow CFIGS are
probably doing this routinely now. I think if we all work a little
harder on this one, I suspect we can make a serious contribution in
lowering the incidence of this problem.

Cheers,

Paul Corbett
ZZ

Most glider pilots will only make the mistake of releasing on a rudder
waggle one time.. if they survive that.. and then a discussion is had at
ground speed = zero... they may remember.

But then again.. some will repeat the mistake a second time... As a CFIG ..
that bugs me..

As a tow pilot.. and I cant' get a radio call in because of all the unneeded
chatter on the CTAF.. If I'm climbing ok, I'll wait to make the radio call..
but if I'm not climbing and need those spoilers closed NOW.. I'll wag the
rudders.. if the glider pilot decides he needs to release.. he made the
decision and my problem as tow pilot is solved.

BT

"Ramy" wrote in message
...
Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
learn from them:

1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
- How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...03X00777&key=1

2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
caused more accidents then we know of.
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...06X00809&key=1

Ramy

On Jun 26, 5:47*pm, ZZ wrote:
Ramy wrote:
Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
learn from them:

1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
- How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...03X00777&key=1

2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
caused more accidents then we know of.
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...06X00809&key=1

Ramy

I favor the rudder waggle because it works IF the pilot is and remains
properly
trained.
I was not involved in this pilot's training and I did not witness
the accident but I spoke to the involved pilot within 2 hours of the
event. This pilot, with a Commercial Glider certificate, admitted that he
misinterpreted the rudder waggle (confused it with the rock off). This
seems to be a common
mistake in our sport. It is likely that on the day that he received his
Commercial Glider rating he would not have made this error but
subsequent training, the Flight Review, plus his own personal endeavors
to remain current, if any, clearly failed.

The only mandatory review of these procedures is the flight review. I
have begun a personal vendetta against this problem not only in training
new glider pilots but during all Flight Reviews. I urge all CFIGs to
emphasize this problem and I offer a couple of suggestions...

* * * * 1. During the oral, instead of discussing the check glider signal and
the rock off separately, I treat them as a pair of similar signals * * * * * * *
which must be considered together to appreciate the distinction between
them.
* * * * 2. Just as we tell our students that a rope break or rock off can
happen on any flight, I stress that a check glider signal * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * can also
occur on any flight and to be ready for all three on every launch.
* * * * 3. Show the student both signals on the same flight. I instruct the tow
pilot to show the check glider signal at a safe altitude so if * * * * * * * * *the
student releases by mistake, the recovery is not difficult. Then on the
same flight, the tow pilot rocks the glider off just below the *planned
release altitude. Feedback from the students and pilots in for a BFR has
been positive, most stating that seeing both on * * * * * * * * the same flight really
underscored the difference for them.

These simple ideas are not revolutionary and you fellow CFIGS are
probably doing this routinely now. I think if we all work a little
harder on this one, I suspect we can make a serious contribution in
lowering the incidence of this problem.

Cheers,

Paul Corbett
ZZ

Since you know the details of this incident, any ideas if there was an
attempt to use the radio first and if it was neccessary to waggle the
rudder at low altitude? Or are we just going to continue blame pilots
who missinterpret the signal?

Ramy

At 16:25 26 June 2008, R wrote:
John Smith wrote:
What is wrong wit a mandatory waving off the gliders at the end of the

tow?

Wrong is that I, the glider pilot, want to decide where to be towed and

when to release. Because I, the glider pilot, am in the air without an

engine after the release. No tuggie, no matter how experienced he may
be, will ever tell me when and where to release.

I can promise you, if, I were towing you, and you did not get off when I

waved you off. You would be wearing the rope. I have done it before,
and I still have lots more rope available to me. Aside, from that, I
will normally take you where you want to go, but if, I want you gone,
You will be gone.

The indignant responses from tow pilots are missing the original
point. The first post suggested that *every* tow should end with
the tug signaling the glider to release. That does seem to be
a poor idea in itself, since the wave off would then become an
expected, routine event, and glider pilots would be prone to
adopt the attitude that it really isn't an emergency signal, just
the tow pilot's opinion. And the glider pilot may decide he
wants to stay on for another 500 feet, or to get closer to the
ridge, or whatever.

The wave off shouldn't be routine, it should be used in a
serious situation, and it should be reacted to immediately.

Jim Beckman

Ramy wrote:
On Jun 26, 5:47 pm, ZZ wrote:
Ramy wrote:
Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
learn from them:
1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
- How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...03X00777&key=1
2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
caused more accidents then we know of.
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...06X00809&key=1
Ramy
I favor the rudder waggle because it works IF the pilot is and remains
properly
trained.
I was not involved in this pilot's training and I did not witness
the accident but I spoke to the involved pilot within 2 hours of the
event. This pilot, with a Commercial Glider certificate, admitted that he
misinterpreted the rudder waggle (confused it with the rock off). This
seems to be a common
mistake in our sport. It is likely that on the day that he received his
Commercial Glider rating he would not have made this error but
subsequent training, the Flight Review, plus his own personal endeavors
to remain current, if any, clearly failed.

The only mandatory review of these procedures is the flight review. I
have begun a personal vendetta against this problem not only in training
new glider pilots but during all Flight Reviews. I urge all CFIGs to
emphasize this problem and I offer a couple of suggestions...

1. During the oral, instead of discussing the check glider signal and
the rock off separately, I treat them as a pair of similar signals
which must be considered together to appreciate the distinction between
them.
2. Just as we tell our students that a rope break or rock off can
happen on any flight, I stress that a check glider signal can also
occur on any flight and to be ready for all three on every launch.
3. Show the student both signals on the same flight. I instruct the tow
pilot to show the check glider signal at a safe altitude so if the
student releases by mistake, the recovery is not difficult. Then on the
same flight, the tow pilot rocks the glider off just below the planned
release altitude. Feedback from the students and pilots in for a BFR has
been positive, most stating that seeing both on the same flight really
underscored the difference for them.

These simple ideas are not revolutionary and you fellow CFIGS are
probably doing this routinely now. I think if we all work a little
harder on this one, I suspect we can make a serious contribution in
lowering the incidence of this problem.

Cheers,

Paul Corbett
ZZ

Since you know the details of this incident, any ideas if there was an
attempt to use the radio first and if it was neccessary to waggle the
rudder at low altitude? Or are we just going to continue blame pilots
who missinterpret the signal?


Ramy

Ramy:

Good question. There was no radio in the glider. It was a warm afternoon
at 4200 feet with light winds. The Pawnee had just been refueled. The
tow plane was achieving less than 50 F/M into slightly rising terrain
when he used the Check Glider signal.

Regarding blaming the glider pilot who misinterprets the signal...WHO
else should be blamed? Both signals were establish in advance for a
reason. You can bet that any tow pilot who values his skin knows the TWO
signals which may save his life. Isn't it reasonable to expect that the
glider pilot should also know and retain these signals as well? There
are only TWO. I applaud this tow pilot for having the cool for using the
signal when he did...he could have fed the glider pilot the rope. To be
clear, I am not siding with tow pilots here nor am I trying to hammer
this glider pilot. I really want to focus on the training and especially
the recurrent training.

That why I advocate that if glider pilots see both often enough, they
are less likely to confuse them.

Is every 24 calendar months often enough?

(Caps used for emphasis here.. I'm really not yelling.)

Regards,

Paul
ZZ

On Jun 25, 4:17*pm, Ramy wrote:
Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
learn from them:

1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
- How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...03X00777&key=1

2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
caused more accidents then we know of.http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...06X00809&key=1

Ramy

With all the options available I just think that releasing on a wrong
signal is due to stress, loss of concentration and wanting to react by
rote instead of reasoning out the situation and problem that may
exist.

As we know taking a little time to figure out what is going on is OK
since the TOW plane can likely release you at will if things get
critical for him.

Even when I see a wing rock I quickly evaluate if there is a problem
before deciding to release, ie airspeed, climb rate, hazards, spoilers
etc so I can decide for myself if it was turbulence or truly a wing
rock.

The tow pilots have all confirmed that if they had a serious issue
they would release me even without a wing rock if they needed to.

I think using all options on hand to communicate is a great idea and
the radio is a pretty good way to transmit a message, then of course
you should use what ever you have at your disposal.

Again I simply state that if a rudder wag meaning can be forgotten
then so can any other kind of signal so what could you use in its
place that people could more easily remember?

I suppose a scrolling LED sign like a billboard perhaps but that just
does not seem practical ;-)

Ray

I had a similar problem 2 weeks ago. someone was talking to me when I was
doing my final checks and I did not check that my brakes were closed and
locked. As soon as my Discus was airborne behind the tug the brakes popped
open which dropped me two feet on to the ground. The brakes then slammed
shut so I took off again - so they opened again! Repeat.
This whole sequence took about a second. I had my hand on the release
knob so I pulled off and then grabbed the airbrake lever that was flying
backwards and forwards bruising my hand in the process, and landed
normally straight ahead.
Lessons learned.
NEVER let your self be distracted on checks.
Have your hand on the release. There is not time to be groping for it when
things go wrong at low level.
The next flight in a mosquito on the winch I accidentally knocked the
flap lever into full negative with my knee, but that is another story.

Nigel

Yes, glider pilots SHOULD know the rudder wag signal by heart but....

Typical training scenario: Instructor has arranged with tuggie to wag
rudder at a safe altitude so the student can actually see it happen.
Instructor then asks student to describe towplane signals which he does
accurately. At 1500'AGL the tug rudder wags as requested and the student
releases instead of checking glider.

Instructor: Why did you do that? What were you supposed to do?
Student *%&^$$$

Repeat above approximately three times.

Bill D



"ZZ" wrote in message
m...
Ramy wrote:
On Jun 26, 5:47 pm, ZZ wrote:
Ramy wrote:
Two recent incidents which all sounds too familiar and we can all
learn from them:
1 - Another spoilers out/rudder waggle resulting in premature release
- How many more of those we need till we conclude that the rudder
waggle does NOT work? What happened to radio communication?
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...03X00777&key=1
2 - Another restricted control due to unsecured item. I bet this
caused more accidents then we know of.
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...06X00809&key=1
Ramy
I favor the rudder waggle because it works IF the pilot is and remains
properly
trained.
I was not involved in this pilot's training and I did not witness
the accident but I spoke to the involved pilot within 2 hours of the
event. This pilot, with a Commercial Glider certificate, admitted that
he
misinterpreted the rudder waggle (confused it with the rock off). This
seems to be a common
mistake in our sport. It is likely that on the day that he received his
Commercial Glider rating he would not have made this error but
subsequent training, the Flight Review, plus his own personal endeavors
to remain current, if any, clearly failed.

The only mandatory review of these procedures is the flight review. I
have begun a personal vendetta against this problem not only in training
new glider pilots but during all Flight Reviews. I urge all CFIGs to
emphasize this problem and I offer a couple of suggestions...

1. During the oral, instead of discussing the check glider
signal and
the rock off separately, I treat them as a pair of similar signals
which must be considered together to appreciate the distinction between
them.
2. Just as we tell our students that a rope break or rock off
can
happen on any flight, I stress that a check glider signal
can also
occur on any flight and to be ready for all three on every launch.
3. Show the student both signals on the same flight. I instruct
the tow
pilot to show the check glider signal at a safe altitude so if
the
student releases by mistake, the recovery is not difficult. Then on the
same flight, the tow pilot rocks the glider off just below the planned
release altitude. Feedback from the students and pilots in for a BFR has
been positive, most stating that seeing both on the same
flight really
underscored the difference for them.

These simple ideas are not revolutionary and you fellow CFIGS are
probably doing this routinely now. I think if we all work a little
harder on this one, I suspect we can make a serious contribution in
lowering the incidence of this problem.

Cheers,

Paul Corbett
ZZ

Since you know the details of this incident, any ideas if there was an
attempt to use the radio first and if it was neccessary to waggle the
rudder at low altitude? Or are we just going to continue blame pilots
who missinterpret the signal?


Ramy

Ramy:

Good question. There was no radio in the glider. It was a warm afternoon
at 4200 feet with light winds. The Pawnee had just been refueled. The tow
plane was achieving less than 50 F/M into slightly rising terrain when he
used the Check Glider signal.

Regarding blaming the glider pilot who misinterprets the signal...WHO else
should be blamed? Both signals were establish in advance for a reason. You
can bet that any tow pilot who values his skin knows the TWO signals which
may save his life. Isn't it reasonable to expect that the glider pilot
should also know and retain these signals as well? There are only TWO. I
applaud this tow pilot for having the cool for using the signal when he
did...he could have fed the glider pilot the rope. To be clear, I am not
siding with tow pilots here nor am I trying to hammer this glider pilot. I
really want to focus on the training and especially the recurrent
training.

That why I advocate that if glider pilots see both often enough, they are
less likely to confuse them.

Is every 24 calendar months often enough?

(Caps used for emphasis here.. I'm really not yelling.)

Regards,

Paul
ZZ