When to acknowledge ATC

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Ron Natalie wrote:

Nope, you had permission after the first exchange (where called you back
with your identifier)..

Has 2-way communication been established? If ATC does not
respond, you MAY NOT ENTER THEIR AIRSPACE.

Same happens with IFR traffic. If a Minneapolis Center tries to
hand off a flight to Denver Center, and Denver Center doesn't accept
the handoff, does the flight have permission to enter Denver's
Airspace? Absolutely not. The same applies here. If ATC does not
respond, you don't enter their space.

I did not have to read back the "permission" where as Class Bravo, I must
not only hear the magic words cleared into Bravo, I MUST read back that
clearance.

You're not required to readback in either case.

********. You must. But go on and believe what you believe.
I've posted references to documentation stating opposite your case, for
both ATC and pilots. If you want to go on flying like an idiot, I hope
I'm not controlling you (and as I'm more than likely getting the call
to start at NCT in Sacramento (well what do ya know, Class C!)), you'll
resent me, because if I ask you to remain outside of Class C for a
reason, I'm expecting that readback.

BL.
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Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

Clearances MUST be read back. When you contact ATC in Charlie airspace,
you do not have to read back your "permission to enter" Charlie airspace.


Please cite the FAR that requires clearances be read back.



Typical transmission would be:

ME Jackson Approach (JAN) Sundowner 1234L out of Madison, climbing through
500, headed to Covington LA. (Note the three W's).

JAN Sundowner 1234L, squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89.

ME 34L squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89.

Note, at this point, I have been given PERMISSION to enter Charlie
airspace.


No, not at that point, you had permission to enter at the point ATC said,
"Sundowner 1234L, squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89."



I did not have to read back the "permission" where as Class Bravo, I must
not only hear the magic words cleared into Bravo, I MUST read back that
clearance.


Please cite the FAR that requires you to read back that clearance.

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
. ..

Has 2-way communication been established?


Yes.



If ATC does not
respond, you MAY NOT ENTER THEIR AIRSPACE.


ATC had responded.



********. You must.


You keep saying that but you offer no supporting documentation. Please
provide some.



But go on and believe what you believe.
I've posted references to documentation stating opposite your case, for
both ATC and pilots.


There is nothing in any of the documentation you provided that supports your
position.



If you want to go on flying like an idiot, I hope
I'm not controlling you (and as I'm more than likely getting the call
to start at NCT in Sacramento (well what do ya know, Class C!)), you'll
resent me, because if I ask you to remain outside of Class C for a
reason, I'm expecting that readback.


What are you going to do if you don't get that readback?

If you don't change your attitude you'll not be able to learn the procedures
and won't check out, so it'll never be an issue.

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
. ..

Exactly what I've been saying.


Yeah, you're both wrong.



I never said you had to readback
a clearance INTO Class C, but that if a controller tells you for
whatever reason to remain OUTSIDE of Class C, that should be read back.


It SHOULD be read back? Are you sure? Previously you claimed it MUST be
read back. Which is it?

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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
m...

Thank you. This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to get at all
along in this thread. You *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo
Airspace' to be allowed to enter Bravo airspace. That is your clearance
into it. Even the FARs state it:

Sec. 91.131 - Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B
airspace area except in compliance with ?91.129 and the following
rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility
having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that
area.

Some people just fail to understand that.


The regulation says the operator must receive an ATC clearance, it does not
state he *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace' to be allowed to
enter Bravo airspace.

I'm telling you, as well as the 7110.65P tells you, that you
will hear that. Going from the opposite direction, you will hear
something from Clearance Delivery, stating:

Mooney 64B, cleared out of Las Vegas Class Bravo Airspace. On
departure, turn left heading 160, climb/maintain 5000, departure
frequency 118.4, squawk 0633.

There's your clearance out of Bravo. If you're VFR, you'll hear
'Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace'. That's ATC regulations there, and
ATC are to adhere to that.


Even more than that, if they tell you to remain outside of
Bravo airspace, or any airspace, and give you a reason, pilots are
requested to read that back.


Previously you said it MUST be read back, now you say it's a REQUEST. What
caused you to change your mind? Where does ATC make this request known to
pilots?

I'll say request, because even a 'roger' is acknowledgment. But
if ATC must get a readback that the pilot acknowledges and knows he
must tay outside of that airspace. Apparently, for as much a love you
have for aviation, your lack of knowledge of the regulation
documentation really disturbs me, as an ATC. Call your local TRACON or
center facility, and ask them about Class Bravo airspace and readbacks
regarding entering and leaving it.


ATC is going to expect a readback.


What makes you think that?

Because they will.


If not, they will repeat it.


What makes you think that?

Because you hadn't read anything back.

If no readback is given, they aren't going to *ASSUME* anything.


If there's no response they're going to assume the message was not received
and repeat it. If the message is acknowledged but not read back they're
going to conclude the message was received and understood by the pilot and
that particular little matter is then closed. If the message is read back
they're going to conclude the message was received and understood by the
pilot and that particular little matter is then closed.

No response = no confirmation that their call was received.
That could mean lost communications, which ATC has another set of
regulations to follow, to find out your situation.

They aren't going to think 'oh, he heard it, let me
worry about separating my aircraft flying into JFK, LAS', or any major
field, they are going to get that readback from you, or send up the
F18s to escort you down/shoot you down, depending on how grave the
situation is.


What makes you think you know what ATC thinks?

I'm training for ATC. We're supposed to keep separation of
aircraft, as well as the pilots of those aircrafts safe. That requires
communication. Communication is two-sided. If ATC is trying to
communicate, and doesn't hear the other side acknowledging, ATC isn't
going to assume everything is hunky-dory, and go about his other
business, especially in Class Bravo. He's going to want acknowledgment
that his call was heard and understood.


Class C, on the other hand, requires 2-way comunication. When
that is established, unless told otherwise, you have clearance through
Class C airspace. If ATC tells you to not enter it, for whatever
reason, you don't enter it. In short, once again, if the 2-way
communication is established between pilot and ATC, the clearance
into/through Class C airspace is implied, and pilots may fly through.


So it no longer requires radar contact prior to entry?

If requiring flight following, yes. Either the controller
handing the pilot off to an Approach/Departure controller operating
class C will have already made radar contact, or if the pilot contacts
the Approach/Departure controller and requests flight following, they
will be given a transponder code and radar identified. Otherwise there
is no flight following.

BL.
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Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
. ..

Has 2-way communication been established?


Yes.


How? ATC hadn't responded to you. that is not 2-way
communication. If ATC doesn't respond, what do YOU do? violate their
airspace? I know what knowledgable pilots will do, but what would YOU
do? (watch your answer here. it's the difference between getting your
pilot's license suspended, and doing the right thing.)


If ATC does not
respond, you MAY NOT ENTER THEIR AIRSPACE.


ATC had responded.

Once again, they hadn't. And if they don't respond, again, what
would you do?


********. You must.


You keep saying that but you offer no supporting documentation. Please
provide some.

Clearances must be read back. Just like receiving your
clearance from delivery.


But go on and believe what you believe.
I've posted references to documentation stating opposite your case, for
both ATC and pilots.


There is nothing in any of the documentation you provided that supports your
position.

Once again, the 7110.65P supports what ATC will say, and expect
to be heard back. Read it. Then read it again.


If you want to go on flying like an idiot, I hope
I'm not controlling you (and as I'm more than likely getting the call
to start at NCT in Sacramento (well what do ya know, Class C!)), you'll
resent me, because if I ask you to remain outside of Class C for a
reason, I'm expecting that readback.


What are you going to do if you don't get that readback?

If you don't change your attitude you'll not be able to learn the procedures
and won't check out, so it'll never be an issue.

If you don't change yours, your stubborness will gift you with
a request to call the TRACON facility handling you regarding the
concept of communications and readbacks.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
. ..

Exactly what I've been saying.


Yeah, you're both wrong.

You haven't provided anything to say otherwise. Now, your turn.
Put up docs to prove your side, or shut up.


I never said you had to readback
a clearance INTO Class C, but that if a controller tells you for
whatever reason to remain OUTSIDE of Class C, that should be read back.


It SHOULD be read back? Are you sure? Previously you claimed it MUST be
read back. Which is it?

Damn it, Ron, you're trolling now.

It has to be read back. Like any call/acknowledgment. a simple
'roger' or ignoring it doesn't work. Read it back. Save your ass a
request to call the facility, let alone another checkride because
you've mucked things up, and read it back.

BL.
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Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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Sorry about my last post, Steve. It's directed towards you, not
Ron.

BL.
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Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
.. .

I'm telling you, as well as the 7110.65P tells you, that you
will hear that.


You're not in a position to tell me anything on this subject and FAAO
7110.65 does NOT use that phrase.



I'll say request, because even a 'roger' is acknowledgment.


Are you saying your original statement was wrong?



But if ATC must get a readback that the pilot acknowledges and knows he
must tay outside of that airspace.


There is no requirement for ATC to get that readback.



Apparently, for as much a love you
have for aviation, your lack of knowledge of the regulation
documentation really disturbs me, as an ATC.


I know everything about these requirements, and you're not an ATC.



Call your local TRACON or
center facility, and ask them about Class Bravo airspace and readbacks
regarding entering and leaving it.


When my local TRACON gets such questions there frequently directed to me for
the answer.



Because they will.


You think they will because they will? That's not an answer. Something
caused you to posess this erroneous belief, what was it? Did it come to you
in a dream?



Because you hadn't read anything back.


There's no need to, and there's no reason for ATC to desire one. How could
they require a readback?



No response = no confirmation that their call was received.
That could mean lost communications, which ATC has another set of
regulations to follow, to find out your situation.


Do you understand that acknowledgement IS a response?



I'm training for ATC.


Really. You must be very early in the program. I teach ATC.



We're supposed to keep separation of
aircraft, as well as the pilots of those aircrafts safe. That requires
communication. Communication is two-sided. If ATC is trying to
communicate, and doesn't hear the other side acknowledging, ATC isn't
going to assume everything is hunky-dory, and go about his other
business, especially in Class Bravo. He's going to want acknowledgment
that his call was heard and understood.


That's true, but your position has been that mere acknowledgement is not
sufficient, that the pilot MUST provide a readback. I and a few others have
been trying to explain to you that a readback is NOT required.



If requiring flight following, yes. Either the controller
handing the pilot off to an Approach/Departure controller operating
class C will have already made radar contact, or if the pilot contacts
the Approach/Departure controller and requests flight following, they
will be given a transponder code and radar identified. Otherwise there
is no flight following.


No, is it still your position that there must be radar contact prior to
entry?

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
.. .

How? ATC hadn't responded to you. that is not 2-way
communication. If ATC doesn't respond, what do YOU do? violate their
airspace? I know what knowledgable pilots will do, but what would YOU
do? (watch your answer here. it's the difference between getting your
pilot's license suspended, and doing the right thing.)


Here's the exchange again:

"ME Jackson Approach (JAN) Sundowner 1234L out of Madison, climbing through
500, headed to Covington LA. (Note the three W's)."

"JAN Sundowner 1234L, squawk 0103, altimeter 29.89."

Jackson approach responded to the pilot's transmission with his callsign,
two-way radio communications have been established.



Once again, they hadn't. And if they don't respond, again, what
would you do?


Well, once again, they had.



Clearances must be read back. Just like receiving your
clearance from delivery.


Please cite the general requirement for clearances to be read back.



Once again, the 7110.65P supports what ATC will say, and expect
to be heard back. Read it. Then read it again.


I have read it, many times. You'll likely never encounter anyone more
familiar with it than I. It does NOT use the phrase you quoted.



If you don't change yours, your stubborness will gift you with
a request to call the TRACON facility handling you regarding the
concept of communications and readbacks.


That is extremely unlikely, but if it ever does happen, then they will be a
bit more knowledgeable about ATC after the call.