tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On Jul 21, 6:16*pm, BobW wrote:
(Groan.) Well...sincere praise to the pilot for his honesty 'after the fact.'
How utterly terrible the 'opportunity' to display it, and may no other glider
pilot ever have to make such a choice in the future.

I'll be honest, the only time I ever experienced a "real" rudder wag
signal, I also released immediately. You're under tow and barely
climbing, there is obviously something quite wrong, you're
anticipating the tow plane to signal for a release any moment, your
hand is already on the release, you're looking around to assess
landing options, then you get a signal (any signal will do by that
point) and reflexively pull the release. In my case, though, the tow
pilot made a big slow circle back over the runway before making the
signal. As soon as I pulled the release, the problem was obvious, I
closed the spoilers and landed normally.

I asked the tow pilot afterwards why he waited, he said that all the
pilots at that operation had been briefed to delay, if possible, until
the glider was in a position to make a normal pattern. Despite
demonstrating the rudder wag during training, asking people about the
signals during every flight reviews, etc., in practice at that site,
well over half the pilots who were given rudder wags for open spoilers
released immediately.

I'm aware of two other fatal accidents following a rudder wag.
Perhaps, we are all too dense to be flying. Perhaps some, like
myself, who were flying long before the rudder wag signal was
"standardized", are confused by the fact that it was once commonly
used as a signal to indicate that this would be a good point to
release. Or, perhaps it is just a bad idea...

Marc

On Jul 21, 2:34*pm, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
Looking at all 2011 accidents reported thus far, a good portion
involved pilots with little apparent time in model or particular
glider. *I'm just sayin'.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

The rest of the storyhttp://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/23254

Well, after having read the "rest of the story" it is obvious that this
was a major misinterpretation of the tow pilots rudder waggle by BOTH
pilots. *The "copilot" shouts "release, release, release," and the "pilot"
fails to properly interpret the rudder wag and releases. *

We all make mistakes, unfortunately some of our mistakes can be fatal. *We
must all continually update our knowledge of emergency signals and
procedures to help reduce these kinds of accidents. *JMHO.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly[/i][/color]

How many more pilots need to die until the rudder waggle will be
replaced with something more sensible, like a radio call?? No radio,
no tow! and if it is absolutely necessary to waggle the rudder, it
should be delayed until the glider is high enough to land safely!
Obviously the NTSB is not going to do anything about it, it is up to
us, SSA, SSF or whoever the force may be to do something about it!

Sigh!

Ramy

Originally Posted by Ramy

On Jul 21, 2:34*pm, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
Looking at all 2011 accidents reported thus far, a good portion
involved pilots with little apparent time in model or particular
glider. *I'm just sayin'.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

The rest of the storyhttp://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/23254

Well, after having read the "rest of the story" it is obvious that this
was a major misinterpretation of the tow pilots rudder waggle by BOTH
pilots. *The "copilot" shouts "release, release, release," and the "pilot"
fails to properly interpret the rudder wag and releases. *

We all make mistakes, unfortunately some of our mistakes can be fatal. *We
must all continually update our knowledge of emergency signals and
procedures to help reduce these kinds of accidents. *JMHO.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly[/i][/color]

How many more pilots need to die until the rudder waggle will be
replaced with something more sensible, like a radio call?? No radio,
no tow! and if it is absolutely necessary to waggle the rudder, it
should be delayed until the glider is high enough to land safely!
Obviously the NTSB is not going to do anything about it, it is up to
us, SSA, SSF or whoever the force may be to do something about it!

Sigh!

Ramy

Nothing is perfect, the radio is a good idea, I carry a hand held in a rental ship without a radio. Always do a radio check with the tow plane prior to tow. That being said, it's up to the pilot to carry a radio or not. The signals from the tow plane need to be constantly studied and understood. Human nature being what it is, complacency becomes our enemy and ultimately our undoing. Much of our safety is in our own hands, checklists, understanding signals, use of a radio, remaining proficient. JMHO.

Walt

I'm aware of two other fatal accidents following a rudder wag.
Perhaps, we are all too dense to be flying. Perhaps some, like
myself, who were flying long before the rudder wag signal was
"standardized", are confused by the fact that it was once commonly
used as a signal to indicate that this would be a good point to
release. Or, perhaps it is just a bad idea...

Marc[/quote]

Marc, I was unaware of the rudder wag ever being a signal that this would be a good point to release. How wide spread was this? Was this a local thing? It would seem that such an understanding would be a difficult thing to change considering the law of primacy.

Walt

Just a couple of weeks ago, I was towing a commercial glider checkride and,
per the DPE's request rocked the wings repeatedly at 2,800 AGL. The
applicant said, "Why's he rocking his wings?", and hung on to the tow. The
ride was a bust.

BTW, on the walk out to the launch line, the DPE briefed the applicant on
the signal and what it means.

I've had two engine failures with gliders on tow (blown front engine seal
and failed oil pump) and both times the glider released when I rocked the
wings. Had they not, I'd have dumped them without concern of the terrain
below.


"Greg Arnold" wrote in message
...
On 7/21/2011 12:26 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:


http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...tal-Glider-Cra...
Describes a low level tow release.

From the reports and videos, the crash site can be located on GE to
38°18'49.94"N 76°32'8.78"W

That's about 2075 feet from the end of the runway and about 285 feet
left of the runway center line.
One report mentioned the glider turned left before striking the tree.

There's a line of trees bordering the airport in the GE images.
Summer foliage along Hwy235 is definitely heavier than the GE images,
which are over four years old, dated 3/29/2007.

Looking at all 2011 accidents reported thus far, a good portion
involved pilots with little apparent time in model or particular
glider. I'm just sayin'.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

The rest of the story
http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index....story_ID/23254


How many pilots have died because they thought a rudder waggle meant they
must release?

One hour or a thousand in type - it doesn't make a bit of difference to the
pilot's required knowledge of signals!. That's just making excuses for
poorly trained pilots (and CFIGs)...


"Walt Connelly" wrote in message
...

Looking at all 2011 accidents reported thus far, a good portion
involved pilots with little apparent time in model or particular
glider. *I'm just sayin'.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

The rest of the story
http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index....story_ID/23254

Well, after having read the "rest of the story" it is obvious that this
was a major misinterpretation of the tow pilots rudder waggle by BOTH
pilots. The "copilot" shouts "release, release, release," and the "pilot"
fails to properly interpret the rudder wag and releases.

We all make mistakes, unfortunately some of our mistakes can be fatal. We
must all continually update our knowledge of emergency signals and
procedures to help reduce these kinds of accidents. JMHO.

Walt




--
Walt Connelly [/i][/color]

In this case the pair were still climbing, though slowly, but what if they
couldn't climb out of ground effect?

There's no substitute for knowledge, skill, and preparation. Please don't
try to legislate safety with more rules.


"Ramy" wrote in message
...
On Jul 21, 2:34 pm, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
Looking at all 2011 accidents reported thus far, a good portion
involved pilots with little apparent time in model or particular
glider. *I'm just sayin'.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

The rest of the
storyhttp://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/23254

Well, after having read the "rest of the story" it is obvious that this
was a major misinterpretation of the tow pilots rudder waggle by BOTH
pilots. The "copilot" shouts "release, release, release," and the "pilot"
fails to properly interpret the rudder wag and releases.

We all make mistakes, unfortunately some of our mistakes can be fatal. We
must all continually update our knowledge of emergency signals and
procedures to help reduce these kinds of accidents. JMHO.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly[/i][/color]

How many more pilots need to die until the rudder waggle will be
replaced with something more sensible, like a radio call?? No radio,
no tow! and if it is absolutely necessary to waggle the rudder, it
should be delayed until the glider is high enough to land safely!
Obviously the NTSB is not going to do anything about it, it is up to
us, SSA, SSF or whoever the force may be to do something about it!

Sigh!

Ramy

On Jul 11, 5:38*pm, wrote:
On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...Szybowiec_rozb...

Can't anyone in this group spell? It's "break" not "brake".

On Jul 22, 6:44*am, "Dan Marotta" wrote:
One hour or a thousand in type - it doesn't make a bit of difference to the
pilot's required knowledge of signals!. *That's just making excuses for
poorly trained pilots (and CFIGs)...

"Walt Connelly" wrote in message

...





Looking at all 2011 accidents reported thus far, a good portion
involved pilots with little apparent time in model or particular
glider. *I'm just sayin'.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

The rest of the story
http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index....story_ID/23254

Well, after having read the "rest of the story" it is obvious that this
was a major misinterpretation of the tow pilots rudder waggle by BOTH
pilots. *The "copilot" shouts "release, release, release," and the "pilot"
fails to properly interpret the rudder wag and releases.

We all make mistakes, unfortunately some of our mistakes can be fatal. *We
must all continually update our knowledge of emergency signals and
procedures to help reduce these kinds of accidents. *JMHO.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -[/i][/color]

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice, it is
the human nature of confusion and tunnel vision under stress! Imagine
you are on tow and barely climbing (since your spoilers are out),
your first thought is that something is wrong with the tow plane, and
once you see the tow pilot waggle the rudder (which may also cause the
wings to rock a little), I bet over 90% of pilots will release, even
if they just practiced this manuver a week ago. There are many
examples confirming this, luckily not all of them resulted in
accidents.
Bottom line: Use radios! If this doesn't work, do not waggle rudders
until at safe altitude, unless the tow plane can not climb at all.

Ramy

"Ramy" wrote in message
...
On Jul 22, 6:44 am, "Dan Marotta" wrote:
One hour or a thousand in type - it doesn't make a bit of difference to
the
pilot's required knowledge of signals!. That's just making excuses for
poorly trained pilots (and CFIGs)...

"Walt Connelly" wrote in
message

...





Looking at all 2011 accidents reported thus far, a good portion
involved pilots with little apparent time in model or particular
glider. *I'm just sayin'.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

The rest of the story
http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index....story_ID/23254

Well, after having read the "rest of the story" it is obvious that this
was a major misinterpretation of the tow pilots rudder waggle by BOTH
pilots. The "copilot" shouts "release, release, release," and the
"pilot"
fails to properly interpret the rudder wag and releases.

We all make mistakes, unfortunately some of our mistakes can be fatal.
We
must all continually update our knowledge of emergency signals and
procedures to help reduce these kinds of accidents. JMHO.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -[/i][/color]

Folks, the problem is not just lack of knowledge or practice, it is
the human nature of confusion and tunnel vision under stress! Imagine
you are on tow and barely climbing (since your spoilers are out),
your first thought is that something is wrong with the tow plane, and
once you see the tow pilot waggle the rudder (which may also cause the
wings to rock a little), I bet over 90% of pilots will release, even
if they just practiced this manuver a week ago. There are many
examples confirming this, luckily not all of them resulted in
accidents.
Bottom line: Use radios! If this doesn't work, do not waggle rudders
until at safe altitude, unless the tow plane can not climb at all.

Ramy

Wow! Don't you know that your spoilers are out? I must have only flown the
best gliders (or the worst) because it's always apparent to me that the
spoilers are open - noise, turbulence, handle out of detent, pitch
attitude...