Enlisted pilots

OK folks. I'm done.

Great, no more sea stories.

I don't know why it's so hard to accept.

Because we are not as gulliable as you are.

A call to
DEVRON would clear your mind on this as well.

Nope, your the one with the ludicrus claims, you need to call and get your
story straight.

This was not braggart idle
boast that led to a sea story. It is ....what it is.

It sure is, "a sea story"

Not trying to make waves just presented a little known fact/program and
got flamed for it.

May have been a "program" but not fact

Eric,

We agree on all of this.

I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled.

I can understand wanting to know who you're getting into an aircraft with,
but this seems a bit much. A decent Ops Dept should have separated the
qualled from the unqualled.

Exactly. Flying Test or PMH is a bit more demanding than, gee, who wants to
X country backseat to V Beach this weekend. I would rely on the Ops folks.

I don't recall anyone wearing any awards or insignia they weren't
"qualified" to wear. I do remember some awards, and some claims some people
made that I thought were BS.

A little confusion here as you disagree then agree. I had a pilot report to
me in Summer Whites wearing an Air Medal with 4 Stars and a Strike device.
I had his service jacket on my desk. He had 2 Air Medals. His excuse was
his wife did his ribbons.

As for Midlant's claims, I have been in contact the command in question and
will address my findings with him via email so he can decide whether to
share it with the NG seeing he brought it up. The retirement program was
faxed to COMOPTEVFOR and the appropriate people are getting back to me. It
has taken a bit of time as this was not on my priority list, the lack of
desire to embarrass a retired Chief, and the fact I was on leave.

As for the Army, there were many enlisted helo pilots in Viet Nam.

JD

"Eric Scheie" wrote in message
. net...

"Jake Donovan" wrote in message
news:smQJa.21975$H17.17298@lakeread03...
John,

And YES, I have questioned the badges and quals
of many officers and enlisted in my job. And YES, there have been more
cases than we'd like to admit of active duty members wearing devices
they
were not qualified to wear. Officers and Enlisted alike.


I don't recall anyone wearing any awards or insignia they weren't
"qualified" to wear. I do remember some awards, and some claims some
people
made that I thought were BS. The best story I've heard along this about
the
young enlisted man who wore a WWII ribbon on his uniform. Obviously the
lad
hadn't even been born during WWII, but when asked, he said it had been his
father's and he had given it to him. We all had to chuckle - the guy made
a
mistake, but I don't think there was any attempt to deceive.


Last Enlisted Naval Aviator actually retired in 1980 and not 81 even
though
it has been recorded as such.

I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled. The
leather (or cloth patch) with NFO wings on it doesn't mean squat to me
unless I know the man personally, or I have seen his NATOPS jacket.


I can understand wanting to know who you're getting into an aircraft with,
but this seems a bit much. A decent Ops Dept should have separated the
qualled from the unqualled. A few drinks together at the O-club would also
reveal as much, and perhaps more. Sir, I think this thread has got your
ire
up a bit.


As for him being a pilot, sure, he could be, a private pilot. Heck, I
know
civilian pilots who have been allowed pilot Naval aircraft. As for
Secial
Ops in a C-12? There are no special OPs missions for C-12s. A C-12 is
a
Beech (Raytheon) Super King Air Primary Function: Passenger and (UC12)
cargo
airlift (Has been used for Med Evac and Maritime Aviation Training)


The closest thing I can recall to SPECOPS might be the Guard Rail mission
where the C-12 did SIGINT, but I can't see a SEAL being involved with
that.


C141 and C17? Now you are either dreaming or your friend is pulling
your
leg over your head and up somewhere else.

Yeah, I agree. An enlisted SEAL gets "trained as a pilot" and just goes to
the USAF and into a heavy transport? Nope, not going to happen, sorry.

I think this thread has taken on a life of its own. Part of it being the
original poster who I think misunderstood a bit of exaggeration on the
part
of a shipmate, and everyone has been involved in a battle caused by
semanitcs. Case in point - a young enlisted fellow in the last USNR
squadron
I was in loved to mention to me, every time we met (EVERY TIME), the "over
250 hours" he had in the H-2. It still makes me chuckle, and I just didn't
have the heart to tell him that while I was glad he enjoyed sitting in the
troop seat, it really didn't count for anything. Sounds like the SEAL in
question may have had flight training, paid for by the USN, and while he
may
have flown IN Navy aircraft, perhaps even been given some stick (or yoke)
time here and there, he was never a designated Naval Aviator.

Depending on what stories you want to believe, there were at one time,
some
SEALS who had taken flight training, ostensibly to provide them with
enough
knowledge to fly certain civilian aircraft.

To be fair, however, I did know a fellow who had been a crew chief on
UH-1s
with the Army in Vietnam. His story was that he was given just enough
training to enable him to fly the aircraft in the event of the pilots
being
killed or wounded. I have no reason to question the veracity of his story,
and he never claimed to be an Army aviator, though I've never heard or
read
of an instance where this happened.

V/R

Eric Scheie

I earlier wrote:

I don't recall anyone wearing any awards or insignia they weren't
"qualified" to wear. I do remember some awards, and some claims some
people
made that I thought were BS.


Then,

"Jake Donovan" wrote in message
news:7v5Oa.86421$H17.72187@lakeread03...

A little confusion here as you disagree then agree. I had a pilot report
to
me in Summer Whites wearing an Air Medal with 4 Stars and a Strike device.
I had his service jacket on my desk. He had 2 Air Medals. His excuse was
his wife did his ribbons.


To which I replied,

Sir, to clairfy my statement. While I don't recall running into anyone
wearing wings, or a SWO pin, or a Budweiser, etc. who wasn't qualified,
there were a number of people who wore awards I thought were BS. (That's not
to say there's never been anyone wearing unauthorized warfare insignia.) I
never checked anyone's service record, and their awards may all be well
documented, but what some of them received awards for was just BS. I've seen
others make claims about awards they said they were getting or submitting
themselves for that were BS as well.

A couple of examples:

1. Frigate CO returns from Desert Storm where the ship had spent time in the
NAG. He is soon after sporting a Bronze Star.
2. More than one helo pilot who had been part of ops in the Red Sea during
Desert Shield/Storm returned trying to get air medals. As one told me, "Yup,
I'm getting 4 air medals." Neither received their air medals.

I hope that clarifies my previous statement. We have the same disdain for
someone wearing uniform devices they are not qualified for. I'm sure the
pilot you mentioned was given some...counseling.

I think someone misrepresented themselves a bit to Midlant, and
unfortunately, he's still having his leg pulled today.

V/R

Eric Scheie

You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
care.



"Jake Donovan" wrote in message news:smQJa.21975$H17.17298@lakeread03...
John,

I am active duty. I am also work closely with NAVAIR, Air Warfare and
CNATRA and can tell you 100% that there are NO enlisted members of the Navy
qualified to wear wings of gold or silver. He may be a SEAL, but he isn't a
Naval Aviator. He may wear a SEAL Device, but did you ever see him wear
Silver Naval Aviator Wings? And YES, I have questioned the badges and quals
of many officers and enlisted in my job. And YES, there have been more
cases than we'd like to admit of active duty members wearing devices they
were not qualified to wear. Officers and Enlisted alike.

Last Enlisted Naval Aviator actually retired in 1980 and not 81 even though
it has been recorded as such.

"Annual Report, Bureau of Naval Personnel Statistics (Report 15658),
discontinued in mid FY 1993. Figures for enlisted personnel in aviation
rates for FY 1993*95 provided^directly from BuPers, PERS 221D.Note-Does not
include men in training. Aviation rates under Navy for years 1933*39 include
general service ratings assigned to aviation duty. Enlisted pilots
for1920*26 are included under aviation rates. All Navy figures for World War
II period, 1940*45, include Coast Guard. Figures not available for Marine
Corps, 1920*29.594UNITED STATES NAVAL AVIATION 1910*1995Aviation Personnel
on Active Duty-Continued"

I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled. The
leather (or cloth patch) with NFO wings on it doesn't mean squat to me
unless I know the man personally, or I have seen his NATOPS jacket.

As for him being a pilot, sure, he could be, a private pilot. Heck, I know
civilian pilots who have been allowed pilot Naval aircraft. As for Secial
Ops in a C-12? There are no special OPs missions for C-12s. A C-12 is a
Beech (Raytheon) Super King Air Primary Function: Passenger and (UC12) cargo
airlift (Has been used for Med Evac and Maritime Aviation Training)

C141 and C17? Now you are either dreaming or your friend is pulling your
leg over your head and up somewhere else. The AF has its own Special Ops
teams and Pilots to fly them. I know of a couple of Navy test Pilots that
have a few hours in a C17, but to suggest an enlisted SEAL flys them
regularly for special OPs missions?

I talked to J B Hollyer yesterday and he laughed when I mentioned Special
OPs in C or UC-12s. Why? He is the former CO of VX20, NAWC - NAVAIR. They
do ALL testing and eval for the C-12. He did tell me the type may have been
used by other folks to run special OPs like drugs, but not in the Navy and
not by the SEALS. As for the C17 and C141, it took him a few minutes to pick
the phone back up and compose himself.

I may just call RADM Cocker tomorrow and put an end to this thread.


JD
Capt USN (no ret at the end of that title)

On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
, "M Power"
wrote:

You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
care.



Mpower...

Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of contention
in the thread.

--Woody

"Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" wrote in message ...
On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
, "M Power"
wrote:

You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
care.



Mpower...

Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of contention
in the thread.

--Woody

Woody - I wish I could answer that, but none of the guys I know wear
their wings. I really don't know what they would wear.

On 7/16/03 6:40 AM, in article
, "M Power"
wrote:

"Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...
On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
, "M Power"
wrote:

You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
care.



Mpower...

Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of contention
in the thread.

--Woody

Woody - I wish I could answer that, but none of the guys I know wear
their wings. I really don't know what they would wear.

That's cool.

In my mind, that's what the dispute in the thread is over. In other words,
I heard wind of a program that trained SEALS to fly aircraft through the
civilian training pipeline using Navy money--slimy but effective. Just like
you posted... They fly civilian aircraft. So these guys were full-fledged
pilots employed by the Navy, but they were not Naval Aviators, and thus not
entitled to wear the gold wings. They're Navy pilots but not Naval
Aviators.

Just like if I went through some survivalist course and/or learned how to
shoot and perform some SEAL-like skills, I would not be entitled to wear the
Budweiser pin.

The Navy has a similar program for ROTC students slated to go to flight
school. They can go to an approved civilian part 141 school where the Navy
will provide vouchers for them to get 20 hours of instruction.

--Woody

Doug- The Navy has a similar program for ROTC students slated to go to flight
school. They can go to an approved civilian part 141 school where the Navy
will provide vouchers for them to get 20 hours of instruction. BRBR

I did this in 1970-Called FIP, Flight Indoctriation Program...but got 40 hours
and 50 hours of ground school, just had to pay for the check ride to get my
private ticket...a Great deal.

Paid for by the USN...flew civilain aircraft...wasn't a Naval Aviator or even
Navy pilot tho...


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

MPower,

I was going to let the originator decide where to take this but you need to
be corrected. After contacting all organizations that have anything to do
with Naval Aviation training and the SEALS, there are NO, I repeat NO
enlisted NAVAL AVIATORS in the Navy.

The people you are referring to were trained for special missions in private
aircraft and do not hold a 13XX designator. They may be pilots who are in
the Navy, but they are NOT Naval Aviators nor can they fly as Pilot in
Command of any Naval Aircraft without a designated Naval Aviator in a dual
controlled aircraft. They can not LOG anytime in a Naval Aircraft, even if
they get stick time.

And to clear another point up, the original person who was "one of 11
enlisted pilots" who just retired, was trained through this program and was
not a NAVAL AVIATOR. He was a private pilot. Yes, his service jacket was
looked at.

Being a pilot and being a Naval Aviator are not the same. In the same
breath, a 1310 designated Naval Aviator who does not hold a Private Pilot
Certificate can not fly solo in a privately owned Cessna 172 legally.

This should tie-up all loose ends.

JD

"M Power" wrote in message
om...
"Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...
On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
, "M Power"
wrote:

You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
care.



Mpower...

Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of
contention
in the thread.

--Woody

Woody - I wish I could answer that, but none of the guys I know wear
their wings. I really don't know what they would wear.

"Jake Donovan" wrote in message
news:6UcRa.16144$AD3.3690@lakeread04...
MPower,

I was going to let the originator decide where to take this but you need
to
be corrected. After contacting all organizations that have anything to
do
with Naval Aviation training and the SEALS, there are NO, I repeat NO
enlisted NAVAL AVIATORS in the Navy.

The people you are referring to were trained for special missions in
private
aircraft and do not hold a 13XX designator. They may be pilots who are in
the Navy, but they are NOT Naval Aviators nor can they fly as Pilot in
Command of any Naval Aircraft without a designated Naval Aviator in a dual
controlled aircraft. They can not LOG anytime in a Naval Aircraft, even
if
they get stick time.

And to clear another point up, the original person who was "one of 11
enlisted pilots" who just retired, was trained through this program and
was
not a NAVAL AVIATOR. He was a private pilot. Yes, his service jacket was
looked at.


As I suspected. To further the point, my father, a retired NFO, has
hundreds of hours of private pilot time logged in Naval aircraft, but he
would never claim to be a Navy pilot.