Dr Hans Kammler

"Andy Simmons" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

snip


Rudolf Toussaint was sentenced for life for war crimes committed on
occupied
Czech territory during the Second World War, but was released in 1961,
and allowed to move to Germany, having agreed to cooperate with
the Czech secret police.

This isnt quite the same as working for the Russians

What exactly is/was the difference???

Being imprisoned by a nation is usually viewed rather differently
then working for them. He spent 15 years in the nick after which
he was released on the proviso that he sent reports on all his
contacts back to base.

snip


Sorry but this is NOT the case. The documents were hidden
Von Braun's aide, Dieter Huzel, who buried them in an abandoned mine
shaft in the mountains when he learned the scientists and technicians
were
to be shipped to Bavaria.

Kammler had the ideal opportunity to do a deal with the Americans
in early April as they approached Mittelwerk, instead he ordered the
scientists to be moved to Bavaria where it was expected the Nazis
would make a last stand. This is also why the Me-262 experten
were located in this area.

Kammler was an evil ******* but a clever one, it took the scientists 6
long days to reach 'safety', a week was a long time in April 1945
especially when every minute counted. There never was going to be any
last great stand. Even the smart Nazis knew that much which is why
after delivering the scientists and the rockets to the Americans,
Kammler dropped out of sight.

That isnt what happened

He sent the scientists to Bavaria under armed guard and the Americans
capture Mittelwerk/Dora without Kammler's assistance. The surrender
of Von Braun etc was negotiated by Magnus von Braun, brother of
Professor von Braun who cycled out to meet the advancing US
troops and alerted them to the existence of the scientists

rest of conspirowhacko stuff snipped

You appeat to have been somewhat disingenuous in your initial post
in which you puported to have been asking for information.
Instead you appear to be just another of the delusional Luftwaffe46
crowd claiming the existence of undisclosed German VunderVeapons

You Denyav and Herr Arndt should found your own little group
where you can play nicely together.

Keith

Rudolf Toussaint was sentenced for life for war crimes committed on
occupied
Czech territory during the Second World War, but was released in 1961,
and allowed to move to Germany, having agreed to cooperate with
the Czech secret police.

This isnt quite the same as working for the Russians

What exactly is/was the difference???

Being imprisoned by a nation is usually viewed rather differently
then working for them. He spent 15 years in the nick after which
he was released on the proviso that he sent reports on all his
contacts back to base.

Yes and that 'base' belonged to who exactly....it wasn't the Russians
by any chance was it? I am very familiar with the Toussaint case. Oh
go on admit it Kieth, General Toussaint was on the Rusky payroll!

You appeat to have been somewhat disingenuous in your initial post
in which you puported to have been asking for information.
Instead you appear to be just another of the delusional Luftwaffe46
crowd claiming the existence of undisclosed German VunderVeapons

Sorry Kieth but I'm afraid you are wrong once again. Unlike you Kieth
I can support everything I say with historical documents. Transcripts
of interviews with Dr Voss by Allied intelligence and B.I.O.S reports
on the work that went on at Skoda confirm all that I have said. Do you
work in industry Kieth, I would be surprised if you do given your
total lack of understanding of the value of R&D and the attitude of
German scientists towards R&D in Nationalist Socialist Germany.

You Denyav and Herr Arndt should found your own little group
where you can play nicely together.

yawn yawn

You seem to have great difficulty in admiting that you are wrong
Kieth. In each posting your knowledge of this subject has proven to be
very weak. Why post on a subject that you are clearly ignorant about.
If anyone is being disingenuous it would surely be you Kieth as I have
proven you wrong on every single point you have tried to make. My
intention was always to encourage informed debate on the possible fate
of General Kammler and its clear that you are not 'informed' and
cannot contribute intelligently to this topic. Certainly not based on
that one book that you keep quoting from. Let me remind you Kieth of
another couple of sweeping statements you made in which you were
proven wrong and failed to acknowledge it

INCORRECT Kieth
Kammler did not die in early April as you initially stated, I have
supported this by providing you with the following documents:
For your records : Speers referance to this document is given as (From
general Kammler of April 17th, 1945 to Himmler (SS Command
Headquearters, Office II, Organisation I (Ba NS 19/old 1678). Berlin.

INCORRECT Kieth
Luftwaffe Major Hans-Ekkehard Bob's written statement that it was
Kammler who agreed with Galland to relocate JV-44. I very much doubt
that you even know who Major Hans-Ekkehard Bob was. Or do you pretend
you do after a quick Google search eh?

SS bank accounts..Skoda Works Czechoslovakia...I could go on and
on....

I guess you are in a little corner now and all out of knowledge, so
you start getting a little frustrated and hurling insults. Its only
natural Kieth never mind. I strongly suggest that you try and read
more, it'll do you good.

I very much doubt
that you even know who Major Hans-Ekkehard Bob was.

H-E Bob is a gigantic success story, turning a signle truck into an empire - he
is a huge industrialist and a magnetic personality. Honest laugh, hands
familiar with hard work.

How have your meetings with him gone, Andy?

Andy,

Kammler flew from Prague to Barcelona on 27 April 1944 in a Ju-290 flown by Flight Hauptmann Paul Sluzalek. The same day Hitler learned through a BBC radio broadcast that Himmler had negotiated a separate peace through Count folke von Bernadotte and thus ordered the arrest of his SS adjutant Feiglein, Himmler and Kammler.

There are at least four conflicting accounts of Kammler's death and neither one is proven.

The identity of this Ju-290 aircraft is conflicted by confusing information however the consistent information available suggests it was formerly 9V+DK and flying in Deutsch Luft Hansa colours when it reached Barcelona. I no longer have contact with the Spanish source of this information.

The Ju-390 V2 registered RC+DA (modified from JU-290A1 werke nr J900155) was used by Kammlerstab to evacuate the "bell" from a former coal mine near Breslau.

The bell was a container for mercury which was spun inside by electro magnets on the outside until mercury inside fluoresced into a gas plasma causing some unusual electromagnetic effects around it. This was some kind of anti gravity experiment. The bell was flown to Bodo, Norway in Feb 1945.

Dr Wilhelm Voss of Kammler's staff told journalist Tom Agoston after the war that the same Ju-390 V2 flew to Tokyo on 28 March 1945.

In May 1945 it was flown to a German ranch in Paysandu province, Uruguay, where it was dismantled.

Look Andy I am dead keen to correspond with you about the Ju-390 and in particular about Anna Kreisling.

Please will you write to me on: (sy.gunson [AT...delete this] gmail.com)?

Love to hear from you Andy. You're quite right about how important this was to the end of WW2 and stuff which remains classified.

Cheers

Originally Posted by Andy Simmons

Official documentation clearly shows that Kammler was still issuing
orders in late April 1945, his last telegram on April 17th refused
Himmler access to a Junkers truck (which several authors have
interpreted as being the JU390, a plane suitable for long haul non
stop cargo flight).

Cite please, we know that Himmler was meeting with Count Bernadotte in Lubeck on April 24

Certainly, as Cited in: Speer, Albert, SLAVE STATE, THE., London,
Weidenfeld & Nicolson., 1981. National Archive location/citation of
these documents can be provided.

JU390 was of it being loaded with cargo on an air field in
Czechoslovakia). After the war the JU390 was never found. Further
historical documents tell us that on 22nd April 1945 Kammler agreed to
a request of Gallands to relocate ME 262 jets to the vacinity of
Prague.

Nonsense. Galland was appointed commander of JV-44 in Febuary 1945
It was based at Brandenburg Briest until 3rd April 1945 and then relocated
to Munich Riem in Bavaria were it stayed until 29 April 1945

You've missed my point entirely its not important WHERE JV-44 was
relocated to but WHO gave the order and WHEN i.e it was Kammler who
sanctioned Galland's request a responsibility Kammler had assumed on
27th March when he became The Führer's Plenipotentiary for Jet Planes.

This was however NOT near Prague it was in fact over Neuberg in Bavaria

Others might argue that Prague is well within the sphere of operation
of the an ME 262 which could travel well over 1,000 miles on a single
fuel load. Confirmation of Kammler's direct sanctioning of this order
is contained within documents I have obtained from the KZ GUSEN
MEMORIAL COMMITTEE (ST. GEORGEN/GUSEN, Austria - private
communication).

As for the elusive General Kammler, no less than six different
accounts (each with a sworn witness statement) exist describing the
death, suicide/heroric death charge of the General. James Lucas' 'Last
Days of the Reich' even gives another sworn statement (a detailed
account of the evacuation of the German families trapped in Prague to
the American lines at Pilsen). This account clearly states that
Kammler was in Prague on May 7th.


Which would have made it somewhat difficult for him to escape to the
Americans since the Soviets took that city

Absolute nonsense, General Toussaint negotiated with Czech Partisans
at the Revolutionary Czech National Council Head Quarters in Prague
for four hours to secure an armistice to allow German soldiers and
civilians to evacuate the city. Shortly after 4pm on May 8th General
Toussaint was granted his armistice. The alternative was that the SS
‘Der Führer' Regiment would make Pregaue one of the last battlegrounds
of the European theatre and wipe the city of the face of the planet.

Shortly after nine o'clock on the morning of May 9th a column of one
thousand vehicles, overloaded with civilians, military administrative
staff, the wounded and soldiers of ‘Der Führer' reached its final
destination and surrendered to the US 2nd Infantry Division at
Rokiczany.

My point here being in this confusion it would have been very easy for
Kammler to slip through. Oh and incidently where did General Toussaint
end up after WWII, why working for the Russians of course.

A number of years ago when I was researching this subject I exchanged
several letters with one of Kammler's sons. He told me that the
Americans had made numerous attempts to contact his father. This is
certainly not something that you will read about in any conventional
history books today

Probably because there is no evidence that it ever happened

Not according to Kammler's late wife who spoke about it often to her
sons. Again I disagree with you strongly when you say kammler had nothing to trade.

Thats your right of course but since the Americans had the
technicians , scientists and documents ....

And once again, now why exactly was that?....because Kammler made it
possible, this was his bargaining chip along with his other
'developments' which he spoke to Speer about!

IMHO? I have heard this story from several sources, recently a German
lawyer has claimed that General Kammler actually survived the war and
lived in Czechoslovakia as part of a joint deal with the US and
Russia.

And I've heard stories that Elvis is alive and well and working in
a chip shop in Barnsley, that doesnt make it true.

Documentary evidence from this German legal source, (these documents
have been confirmed as authentic by independent forensic examiners)

As were the Hitler diaries as I recall

Which is exactly why the forensic examination and decoding of these
documents has been so thorough. As I am sure you will appreciate
however, these documents differ significantly from the Hitler diaries
in one very important way. They contain information which enables
their authenticity to be verified 100% i.e the coded bank accounts and
names of signatories are real in that these bank accounts/name decode
to show that they really DO EXIST. The banks in question have
CONFIRMED this.

indicate that General Kammler was involved in an organised technology/
financial transfer out of Germany at the wars end. Meetings are
currently taking place with representatives from a number of Swiss
Banks to investiagte these documents further. These meetings were only
agreed to when bank account numbers and names were decoded from these
documents and presented to the banks by the German investigators.

SS financial transfers to Swiss banks are scarcely news

Again you are missing the point entirely, these newly discovered bank
accounts were held by senior Nazi officials. This have NEVER been
confirmed before. Names are given with dates of transfers etc etc.
Even the Bergier Commission failed to identify these bank accounts as
the dates and movements within these accounts fell outside their
remit. On the contrary this is BIG NEWS!

Andy