Collision Avoidance Systems for gliders

After reading of the recent mid-air out West I bought a Zaon MRX PCAS
(Portable Collision Avoidance System) from Aircraft Spruce &
Speciality to try out. I also fly a Piper Vagabond without an
electrical system and this unit doesn't require your aircraft have a
mode C transponder as it's a passive system using the Mode C readout
from another airplane. The unit has a build in electronic altimeter
which compares the Mode C readout of the "target" a/c and gives you a
"relative" altitude difference and approxiamate range. I used it
locally on the ground and observed the readout of a Piper Cherokee
on downwind at the local airport..turn base and
final........amazing!!! Although this unit doesn't give you a bearing
to the target it does give you the altitude and range which sure gives
you some warning. They have a web site http:zaonflight.com which has
an online manual, etc.

Noel Anderson
Schweizer 1-26E

I just brought one from Sporty's. It picks up the F-16's from Luke AFB
over my house while sitting in my living room. Pretty good!

Now, I am just crossing fingers to win the new 172 Sporty's offer ever
year...:-)

Richard
ASW19
Phoenix AZ

On Mar 6, 7:21 pm, "jeplane" wrote:
I just brought one from Sporty's. It picks up the F-16's from Luke AFB
over my house while sitting in my living room. Pretty good!

Now, I am just crossing fingers to win the new 172 Sporty's offer ever
year...:-)

Richard
ASW19
Phoenix AZ

Items like these can often be purchased from a glider operator who
will appreciate any business you can provide. In many, if not most
cases, you can buy at a lower price, and help keep that gliderport
open so many glider pilots will have a place to fly in the future.

Anyway, The ZAON device is simply a great device. Everyone we have
loaned it to has purchased one. Simple, relatively cheap and it does
exactly what is advertised.

Tom Knauff
Knauff & Grove Soaring Supplies
Ridge Soaring Gliderport

OK, gotta jump in here. It's my opinion that if anyone who has any
interest in soaring (for example, someone reading this group) is
buying something even remotely soaring related, it's a crime not to
buy it from one of the operators like Tom, or Richard or Paul or Tim
or ... (insert here your soaring supplier of choice, sorry if I missed
anybody). The way you keep gliderports and gliding-related businesses
in business is to buy stuff from them. They do a lot for us. If it
weren't for the commercial operators, where would we fly? Who would
tow us? I routinely plan to pay as much as a 5% or 10% premium if I
have to, just to help them out.

This is just the Walmart/Home Depot problem on a smaller scale. It's
probably impossible to beat these big box stores, but if you want to
keep your hometown hardware store in business, (and you would want to,
unless they're really bad price gougers) buy from them whenever you
want something that they have.

Now, I understand wanting to be in the Sporty's sweepstakes, but you
can solve that by buying a chart from them. If you want a Zaon, buy
it from one of the above. Now, I think it's fair to shop for price
between them if you want, but unless it's unavoidable keep it between
them. If you have a long-term relationship with one, maybe one who's
done you favors before just because they're nice guys, make it up by
buying stuff from them, without arguing the price.

Ed


Items like these can often be purchased from a glider operator who
will appreciate any business you can provide. In many, if not most
cases, you can buy at a lower price, and help keep that gliderport
open so many glider pilots will have a place to fly in the future.

Anyway, The ZAON device is simply a great device. Everyone we have
loaned it to has purchased one. Simple, relatively cheap and it does
exactly what is advertised.

Tom Knauff
Knauff & Grove Soaring Supplies
Ridge Soaring Gliderport

I've sold dozens of these already and had the same responses from almost all
users....
IMHO this is the answer we should be looking for rather than adding
transponders to gliders.
We have an FAA exemption from requiring transponders in all gliders based on
our "inability" to properly power the additional load transponders require
and an exemption based on the )fact) that we don't normally fly in congested
airspace and in IFR enjoinments....having said that, the FAA is acutely
aware that there is a growing number or transponder equipped gliders, many
of which can routinely be found running down the airways and flying near
military and commercial airliners. I continually hear that "we have to fly
though this heavy traffic area, this is just where we nee to go to get to
the best soaring" or similar comments....the truth of the matter is, as long
as we have this attitude eventually this will not be an option and this
airspace will be closed to all gliders or all gliders will be required to
have an maintain transponders, communicate with appropriate ATC and get
permission to enter into the shrinking airspace we have come to know and
open.
Keeping in mind that a transponder is only truly effective when fully
operational and when the pilot is in contact with ATC (and not chatting on
123.3), that still most of the aircraft you are likely to encounter may also
not be in contact with ATC and will also not have sophisticated TCAS systems
(ever see a C-172 with TCAS?) so your transponder is doing nothing to help
avoid conflict.
The TPAS or MRX system does give you a heads up and a general location for
traffic in question,,more sophisticated TPAS systems can also narrow this
down to range relative altitudes and relative bearing much like a TCAS
system might warn larger aircraft of your position. The MRX is CHEAP...just
over $400 here, simple and completely portable.it may be an excellent answer
to many and may help to allow us to soar more freely for more seasons...
please see : http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page4.htm
respectfully
Tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"noel56z" wrote in message
oups.com...
After reading of the recent mid-air out West I bought a Zaon MRX PCAS
(Portable Collision Avoidance System) from Aircraft Spruce &
Speciality to try out. I also fly a Piper Vagabond without an
electrical system and this unit doesn't require your aircraft have a
mode C transponder as it's a passive system using the Mode C readout
from another airplane. The unit has a build in electronic altimeter
which compares the Mode C readout of the "target" a/c and gives you a
"relative" altitude difference and approxiamate range. I used it
locally on the ground and observed the readout of a Piper Cherokee
on downwind at the local airport..turn base and
final........amazing!!! Although this unit doesn't give you a bearing
to the target it does give you the altitude and range which sure gives
you some warning. They have a web site http:zaonflight.com which has
an online manual, etc.

Noel Anderson
Schweizer 1-26E

Huh???
If you don't think we should be in the airspace with a transponder, then
why would it matter if it was closed to us? I don't get your logic.

What do you think will happen to us when an airliner hits a glider and it
brings the airliner down?

I just visited ATC last week and looked at what they see of non-transponder
equipped aircraft. It is a little + mark. They ignore them. They can't tell
if it is ground clutter, birds, a mylar balloon etc., so it just plain does
not exist to them.

A transponder equipped glider squawking 1200 will have approaching aircraft
advised of it's presence, even with the glider pilot on 123.3. TCAS in any
fast mover will also alert them of the gliders presence. So with a
transponder, you get 2 chances to be seen. You still have the 182's to
worry about, and that is where the Zaon is a handy device, but it's foolish
to think that you'll be able to maneuver out of the way of a fast mover
with a 20 second alert from the Zaon. It will take you that long to make
the turn and locate them. You'll have just enough time to see your immanent
demise.

Brian Bange

having said that, the FAA is acutely aware that there is a growing number
or transponder equipped gliders, many of which can routinely be found
running down the airways and flying near
military and commercial airliners. I continually hear that "we have to fly
though this heavy traffic area, this is just where we need to go to get to
the best soaring" or similar comments....the truth of the matter is, as
long as we have this attitude eventually this will not be an option and this
airspace will be closed to all gliders or all gliders will be required to
have an maintain transponders, communicate with appropriate ATC and get
permission to enter into the shrinking airspace we have come to know and open.

Sporty's is a gliding related business:

http://www.flyeca.com/eca/page.aspx?id=22





"flying_monkey" wrote in message
ups.com...
OK, gotta jump in here. It's my opinion that if anyone who has any
interest in soaring (for example, someone reading this group) is
buying something even remotely soaring related, it's a crime not to
buy it from one of the operators like Tom, or Richard or Paul or Tim
or ... (insert here your soaring supplier of choice, sorry if I missed
anybody). The way you keep gliderports and gliding-related businesses
in business is to buy stuff from them. They do a lot for us. If it
weren't for the commercial operators, where would we fly? Who would
tow us? I routinely plan to pay as much as a 5% or 10% premium if I
have to, just to help them out.

This is just the Walmart/Home Depot problem on a smaller scale. It's
probably impossible to beat these big box stores, but if you want to
keep your hometown hardware store in business, (and you would want to,
unless they're really bad price gougers) buy from them whenever you
want something that they have.

Now, I understand wanting to be in the Sporty's sweepstakes, but you
can solve that by buying a chart from them. If you want a Zaon, buy
it from one of the above. Now, I think it's fair to shop for price
between them if you want, but unless it's unavoidable keep it between
them. If you have a long-term relationship with one, maybe one who's
done you favors before just because they're nice guys, make it up by
buying stuff from them, without arguing the price.

Ed


Items like these can often be purchased from a glider operator who
will appreciate any business you can provide. In many, if not most
cases, you can buy at a lower price, and help keep that gliderport
open so many glider pilots will have a place to fly in the future.

Anyway, The ZAON device is simply a great device. Everyone we have
loaned it to has purchased one. Simple, relatively cheap and it does
exactly what is advertised.

Tom Knauff
Knauff & Grove Soaring Supplies
Ridge Soaring Gliderport

Tim Mara wrote:

We have an FAA exemption from requiring transponders in all gliders based on
our "inability" to properly power the additional load transponders require
and an exemption based on the )fact) that we don't normally fly in congested
airspace and in IFR enjoinments....having said that, the FAA is acutely
aware that there is a growing number or transponder equipped gliders, many
of which can routinely be found running down the airways and flying near
military and commercial airliners.

Which gliders did even before they carried transponders - VFR airspace
is where we fly. I'm told by SSA members that routinely talk to the FAA
on airspace matters that the FAA is indeed "acutely aware" that more and
more gliders are carrying transponders, and the FAA is very pleased
about this!

I continually hear that "we have to fly
though this heavy traffic area, this is just where we need to go to get to
the best soaring" or similar comments....the truth of the matter is, as long
as we have this attitude

Are these pilots flying in airspace legally? If so, and they have
equipped their glider with a transponder to make their flight even
safer, that seems like a great attitude.

I'm not sure I really understand the rest of what Tim was suggesting,
but I agree the MRX or similar unit is an excellent way to start. It
will still be useful, even it you later decide a transponder is
worthwhile. It may even persuade you to get a transponder, if you
discover (as a few pilots have) that you are not seeing all the traffic,
even after it's alerted you to the traffic.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

If everyone would follow this logic that MRX is a better solution than
transponder then we would have no use for MRX...
IMHO we need both. An added benefit is that your MRX will also detect
other transponder equiped gliders, especially important in glider
congested areas such as along ridges. You can even detect other
gliders climbing in thermals nearby as well as compare your thermaling
skills using the altitude and climb indicator...
Speaking of the MRX, does anyone else experience a constant "ghost"
target at the same altitude and within 1 mile range after some time?
According to Zaon this is as a result of the MRX detecting your own
transponder, which indicates a transponder issue.

Ramy

On Mar 7, 8:56 am, "Tim Mara" wrote:
I've sold dozens of these already and had the same responses from almost all
users....
IMHO this is the answer we should be looking for rather than adding
transponders to gliders.
We have an FAA exemption from requiring transponders in all gliders based on
our "inability" to properly power the additional load transponders require
and an exemption based on the )fact) that we don't normally fly in congested
airspace and in IFR enjoinments....having said that, the FAA is acutely
aware that there is a growing number or transponder equipped gliders, many
of which can routinely be found running down the airways and flying near
military and commercial airliners. I continually hear that "we have to fly
though this heavy traffic area, this is just where we nee to go to get to
the best soaring" or similar comments....the truth of the matter is, as long
as we have this attitude eventually this will not be an option and this
airspace will be closed to all gliders or all gliders will be required to
have an maintain transponders, communicate with appropriate ATC and get
permission to enter into the shrinking airspace we have come to know and
open.
Keeping in mind that a transponder is only truly effective when fully
operational and when the pilot is in contact with ATC (and not chatting on
123.3), that still most of the aircraft you are likely to encounter may also
not be in contact with ATC and will also not have sophisticated TCAS systems
(ever see a C-172 with TCAS?) so your transponder is doing nothing to help
avoid conflict.
The TPAS or MRX system does give you a heads up and a general location for
traffic in question,,more sophisticated TPAS systems can also narrow this
down to range relative altitudes and relative bearing much like a TCAS
system might warn larger aircraft of your position. The MRX is CHEAP...just
over $400 here, simple and completely portable.it may be an excellent answer
to many and may help to allow us to soar more freely for more seasons...
please see :http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page4.htm
respectfully
Tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website atwww.wingsandwheels.com

"noel56z" wrote in message

oups.com...



After reading of the recent mid-air out West I bought a Zaon MRX PCAS
(Portable Collision Avoidance System) from Aircraft Spruce &
Speciality to try out. I also fly a Piper Vagabond without an
electrical system and this unit doesn't require your aircraft have a
mode C transponder as it's a passive system using the Mode C readout
from another airplane. The unit has a build in electronic altimeter
which compares the Mode C readout of the "target" a/c and gives you a
"relative" altitude difference and approxiamate range. I used it
locally on the ground and observed the readout of a Piper Cherokee
on downwind at the local airport..turn base and
final........amazing!!! Although this unit doesn't give you a bearing
to the target it does give you the altitude and range which sure gives
you some warning. They have a web site http:zaonflight.com which has
an online manual, etc.

Noel Anderson
Schweizer 1-26E- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Brian Bange" wrote in message
...
Huh???
If you don't think we should be in the airspace with a transponder, then
why would it matter if it was closed to us? I don't get your logic.

"If we continue to fly in these heavy traffic areas, even with a
transponder, but do not stay in communications with ATC it's hardly better
than being there without a transponder.
If we continue to have near iss situations or, worse, hits we won't have to
make the choice, it will be made for us.
We just had a glider and jet collide in this same situation.....the
transponder was reported to be turned off...this is the same situation and
same logic we hear all along. "I only want the transponder turned on when I
am near heavy traffic areas"


What do you think will happen to us when an airliner hits a glider and it
brings the airliner down?

just as I mentioned...we won't have the ability to choose if or where we
want to fly...
The non-soaring public isnt going to listed to some small group of rich
glider pilots with their expensive toys out there making it unsafe for their
kids to fly home from college, Politicians will go where the votes and
voters are, for more federal control. Just look at the politicians responses
in NY and Illinoise after these and similar incidents.


I just visited ATC last week and looked at what they see of
non-transponder
equipped aircraft. It is a little + mark. They ignore them. They can't
tell
if it is ground clutter, birds, a mylar balloon etc., so it just plain
does
not exist to them.

and also they are not required to advise VFR traffic of other targets or at
best on a "workload permitting basis" and they can do this only if they
have communication with the traffic...
So as we blunde around making our circles in the approach path or airways we
can expect ATC to reroute the airliners and other traffic as we go happily
along . It won't take much more to convince the airlines there is a menace
out there causing them delays and costing them fuel..
The simple ingredience are there to work against us....all of us.


A transponder equipped glider squawking 1200 will have approaching
aircraft
advised of it's presence, even with the glider pilot on 123.3. TCAS in any
fast mover will also alert them of the gliders presence. So with a
transponder, you get 2 chances to be seen. You still have the 182's to
worry about, and that is where the Zaon is a handy device, but it's
foolish
to think that you'll be able to maneuver out of the way of a fast mover
with a 20 second alert from the Zaon. It will take you that long to make
the turn and locate them. You'll have just enough time to see your
immanent
demise.

Or....have no warning except the collision...? Your chance of running into
or being run into by fast movers is increased by simpy being in the wrong
place
tim



Brian Bange

having said that, the FAA is acutely aware that there is a growing number
or transponder equipped gliders, many of which can routinely be found
running down the airways and flying near
military and commercial airliners. I continually hear that "we have to fly
though this heavy traffic area, this is just where we need to go to get to
the best soaring" or similar comments....the truth of the matter is, as
long as we have this attitude eventually this will not be an option and
this
airspace will be closed to all gliders or all gliders will be required to
have an maintain transponders, communicate with appropriate ATC and get
permission to enter into the shrinking airspace we have come to know and
open.