When is too many at a glider meet

On Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 12:15:20 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
All that I will say to all of these "feel good" responses is that I hope to God that I am wrong and this event will be perfectly safe.

Tom

Okay, I'll bite. I tried to use some tongue in cheek humor to defuse my initial gut reaction, but here goes. I think it's completely classless (i.e. lacking in grace) to throw out troll bait like your comments when someone puts tremendous effort into organizing an event like this. Having been the guy who has organized any number of soaring events and activities, I know how much safety weighs on the mind. Having people sitting on the sidelines throwing out thinly-veiled criticisms (okay, completely unveiled criticisms) based on rumor and innuendo makes people think twice about stepping up in the future.

At this point, if something DOES happen (God forbid), which is not out of the question at any glider event, you have the bully pulpit all set up to say "see, I told you so."

And, maybe I buried the lead, but IMO there are places where 40 gliders is too many and places where 80 is just fine.

Hope there's not too much humor in the above.

Erik Mann (P3)

The majority of the participants at Nephi are seasoned contest or cross-country pilots. I have no qualms about flying there.

However, it's pretty likely that one or more gliders will suffer some at least minor damage in a ten-day long event. There will be something like 300 or more cross-country flights, with rigging, derigging, towing, loading and some outlanding. (My ship suffered minor damage on my recent trip to Moriarty - trailer and hangar rash.) It's what happens when you use your ship as intended. They are fragile and cross-country flying is not a benign pastime!


Mike

On 6/25/2015 4:23 AM, Papa3 wrote:
On Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 12:15:20 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
All that I will say to all of these "feel good" responses is that I hope
to God that I am wrong and this event will be perfectly safe.

Tom

Okay, I'll bite. I tried to use some tongue in cheek humor to defuse my
initial gut reaction, but here goes. I think it's completely classless
(i.e. lacking in grace) to throw out troll bait like your comments when
someone puts tremendous effort into organizing an event like this. Having
been the guy who has organized any number of soaring events and activities,
I know how much safety weighs on the mind. Having people sitting on the
sidelines throwing out thinly-veiled criticisms (okay, completely unveiled
criticisms) based on rumor and innuendo makes people think twice about
stepping up in the future.

At this point, if something DOES happen (God forbid), which is not out of
the question at any glider event, you have the bully pulpit all set up to
say "see, I told you so."

And, maybe I buried the lead, but IMO there are places where 40 gliders is
too many and places where 80 is just fine.

Hope there's not too much humor in the above.

Erik Mann (P3)


+1 to P3.

IMO every sensible soaring practitioner of ANY sort - tyro of every sort of
future predilection, XC wannabe, 'pure' XC fan, 'hardcore' competition
aficionado, definitional 'glasshole,' etc. - has a gut-level, deep, concern
for flight (and personal) safety. Safety does, after all, not only possibly
directly affect our own individual lives and economic futures but also
inextricably entwines the future of the activity we all feel so deeply about.

I've attended camps where I thought *10* gliders were too many (and never
returned to such sites unless I believed the site limit [as defined by me]
wasn't to be exceeded). For the record such sites were narrow mountain strips
in the Colorado Rockies limited by available ground-handling space and likely
to be influenced/quickly-shut-down by monsoon storms. I've also attended camps
where 'maximum safe glider capacity' was limited essentially by tow plane
availability.

Right or wrong my air-to-air collision/fatality concerns at EVERY camp I've
personal experience with (LOTS of 'em) were essentially unvarying; personal
paranoia has long dictated my approach to 'soaring safety' as I expect some
longer-time RASidents already are aware.

If/when I felt my personal safety limits were being pressured my reactions
were drawn from a small collection: politely expressing my concerns directly
to those in a position to 'do something' about it, whether then or in the
future; voting with my feet; explaining my thinking to those expressing
genuine curiosity; continually evaluating my assessments.

I've never thought certain approaches had serious potential to illuminate and
ameliorate 'safety concerns.'

'Certain approaches' that spring to mind include: drive-by shootings; overly
dramatic hand-waving; personal limitations unhelpfully generalized into 'group
endangerment'; concerns and 'hard conclusions' based on hearsay, indirect,
quite-possibly-muddied-by-distance information; etc.

I am in no way trying to diminish or dismiss the O.P.'s individual safety
concerns, but I do take serious issue with how they were expressed. I take
further issue with the above-noted patronizing dismissal of thoughtful,
specific replies as discussion-killing "'feel good' responses." Is there a
sane soaring practitioner anywhere in the world who doesn't "...hope to God
that...this event will be perfectly safe"?

Respectfully,
Bob W.

On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:15:20 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
All that I will say to all of these "feel good" responses is that I hope to God that I am wrong and this event will be perfectly safe.

Tom

Hi Tom,
We addressed your original concern of NOT having 80+ gliders coming to the event - more like around 65. However,you still seem concerned. What other aspects of this event are you concerned about safety that we can review and address?

As for Glen - thanks for your kind words.

Bruno - B4

On Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:15:20 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
All that I will say to all of these "feel good" responses is that I hope to God that I am wrong and this event will be perfectly safe.

Tom

Hi Tom,
We addressed your original concern of NOT having 80+ gliders coming to the event - more like around 65. However,you still seem concerned. What other aspects of this event are you concerned about safety that we can review and address?

As for Glen - thanks for your kind words.

Bruno - B4

My original question was how many gliders is too many at a meet. This was a simple question. For my efforts I am vilified as a troll. So be it. I remember the 1984 15 Meter Nationals held at Ephrata, WA where they increased the normal limit of contestants from 40 to 65. There were two mid-airs at the contest, one of which resulted in a fatality.

I guess I was naive to expect a respectful, reasoned discussion of the subject. My bad.

Tom

On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 12:15:31 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:15:20 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
All that I will say to all of these "feel good" responses is that I hope to God that I am wrong and this event will be perfectly safe.

Tom

Hi Tom,
We addressed your original concern of NOT having 80+ gliders coming to the event - more like around 65. However,you still seem concerned. What other aspects of this event are you concerned about safety that we can review and address?

As for Glen - thanks for your kind words.

Bruno - B4

My original question was how many gliders is too many at a meet. This was a simple question. For my efforts I am vilified as a troll. So be it. I remember the 1984 15 Meter Nationals held at Ephrata, WA where they increased the normal limit of contestants from 40 to 65. There were two mid-airs at the contest, one of which resulted in a fatality.

I guess I was naive to expect a respectful, reasoned discussion of the subject. My bad.

Tom

The Ephrata contest you refer to started with 69 gliders, featured *three* mid-airs, one fatality, some very scary flying in a badly damaged glider after a mid-air, a take off with a disconnected elevator (pilot okay, ship wrecked hard) and launches that were barely clear of the runway end on some days. And that's just the stuff that got written up in the magazine (back in the day when we took time to write... and read... long articles in print magazines). Soaring Sept. 1984 if anyone wants to look it up.

Reading that article (again) illustrates just how far the contest community has come, safety wise.

I agree, you asked a simple question, you got your answer (you misunderstood "80"). You were not vilified. The heat was generated by a certain other less gracious fellow who got pretty much the response he deserved.

Have fun at Nephi, everyone. Fly sharp, fly safe.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Tom,

I'd go back and reread your original post. I don't think it was a "simple question." It was a thinly veiled criticism of the Nephi XC/OLC camp and the organizers. I'm all for questions that create meaningful dialogue related to safety. In fact, I think it's one of the best things that R.A.S. can contribute (realizing that one has to sift through a lot of slag to find nuggets of useful information).

For your consideration, here's a light edit of your original "question".

As many of you know, the Nephi XC/OLC camp is slated to kick off in a few days. As I understand it, the camp is expecting in excess of 60 participants and maybe as many as 80. That's a lot of gliders in one place. So, how many gliders is too many? What needs to be done to ensure safety in such a setting? I'd be interested in thoughts from people who have experience with large soaring events. What are considerations for safety on course? In the pattern? On the ground? Thanks for any and all thoughtful contributions.

Sincerely,
Erik Mann (P3)

On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 12:02:06 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
I recently learned that Bruno has increased the number of gliders for the Nephi, UT event to 80. That's right, eight zero. IMHO, that is too many, even if FLARM is mandated. There will be pilots there from virtually zero cross country time to seasoned racers. They may be lulled into a false sense of complacency until a storm forces the entire field back to the airport at once, creating chaos. I get the bad feeling that this number will keep increasing - or stay the same - until there is a fatality.

Last year about 10% went home with damaged gliders, from what I heard not much organization, too busy going to the bank.

I like the positive attitude displayed in many rec soaring comments including yours. (that's a joke son). I attended twice last year. One of the best organized events glider or otherwise. I also landed out with some damage. My choice of what looked like a good field not the number of gliders in the event. The other land outs were not a issue, fields and airports.. If you are not prepared to break you glider then don't do cross country or by a motor glider or like my wife says take up ping pong.

You're kidding me right?