Is the 787 a failure ?

On Jan 29, 10:41*pm, (Bradley K. Sherman) wrote:
Yow!
*|
*| Boeing had numerous reliability issues with the main
*| batteries on its 787 Dreamliner long before the two battery
*| incidents this month grounded the entire fleet.
*|
*| More than 100 of the lithium ion batteries have failed and
*| had to be returned to the Japanese manufacturer, according
*| to a person inside the 787 program with direct knowledge.
*|
*| "We have had at least 100, possibly approaching 150, bad
*| batteries so far," the person said. "It's common."
*|
*| The frequency of battery failures reflects issues with the
*| design of the electrical system around the battery, said
*| the person on the 787 program.
*| ...
http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2020241385_787deadbat...

* * --bks

Yeah..I saw that article.

This will NOT be any quick fix.

Anybody hear how much this has cost Boeing and the airlines so far?

It would be in the millions and counting.


TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
...
Anybody hear how much this has cost Boeing and the airlines so far?

|
| According to industry expert John Hansman, the footprint of
| a traditional battery could be accommodated in the avionics
| bays or via split system, and weight would be manageable,
| noted Deutsche Bank. In a worst case scenario, it could
| take Boeing 3 to 6 months to develop a traditional battery
| solution for use in the 787. Meanwhile, the cost pf
| grounding the 787 is estimated at $300 million per month in
| airline penalties plus R&D and related costs.
| ...
http://www.streetinsider.com/Analyst+Comments/Boeing+%28BA%29+787+Traditional+Battery+Fix+Contem plated%2C+Grounding+Costs+%24300MMonth/8039591.html

--bks

On Jan 26, 2:42*am, "Mr.B1ack" wrote:


*Passengers are convinced the 787 is a death-trap.
That's ALL it takes to destroy it.

No, because no one has died in that Boeing 787 plane yet, like with
another Airbus plane.
Another fatal crash landing killed a person or so, I think, here in
this video of an Airbus A319 (which came out only a little before this
incident).

-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fh8-qJqMX4

On 1/25/2013 11:42 PM, Mr.B1ack wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 22:21:55 -0600, F. George McDuffee wrote:

When you want it really really bad, that's generally how you get it...
-----------------------

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:54:55 -0600, "Mr.B1ack" wrote:

snip
Now from a business point of view however ...
snip

These URLs may be of interest. If an emergency is defined as an event
that was unanticipated in occupance and limited in duration, clearly
this is no emergency.

That's TECHNICAL ... "legal" ... has NOTHING to do
with how potential passengers should act or react.

Passengers are convinced the 787 is a death-trap.

No, they are not. You're full of ****. When that plane resumes
commercial service, the vast majority of air passengers will get on it
with little concern.

You don't know what you're talking about.

|
| When it came time for U.S. regulators to certify the safety
| of Boeing Co.'s 787 Dreamliner and its new technologies,
| they relied on the planemaker's engineers to oversee final
| tests and vouch for their company's work.
|
| The Federal Aviation Administration has operated that way
| for many years, even as government audits have found those
| efforts were sometimes poorly overseen and led to errors.
| The agency in 2005 began allowing Boeing and other
| manufacturers to pick the engineers, who previously were
| chosen by the FAA.
| ...
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20130131/BIZ/701319885

|
| And while its exciting to see everybody as energized as a
| certain battery bunny over questions about electrons and
| cathodes and battery management systems, I worry that when
| the headlines bounce from one potential "cause" to another,
| the real hazard will will fade from view. That real hazard
| as I see it is the manufacturer's reliance on the extremely
| volatile cobalt oxide flavor of litihum ion.
| ...
http://blog.seattlepi.com/flyinglessons/2013/01/29/dreamliner-use-of-hazardous-battery-like-wack-a-mole/

--bks

On Jan 31, 4:35*pm, (Bradley K. Sherman) wrote:

That real hazard
*| as I see it is the manufacturer's reliance on the extremely
*| volatile cobalt oxide flavor of litihum ion.
*| ...
http://blog.seattlepi.com/flyinglessons/2013/01/29/dreamliner-use-of-...

"The most dangerous time to be around a LiCo cell is when it is
charging. The danger exists because the chemistry can become very
unstable if it becomes overcharged. "
-- http://www.rigcast.com/flashlights/lithium-ion-guide/

NTSB 7th update

Synopsis:
Navy research, no result.
DoE rep has been added to the investigation.
NTSB going to France to get Thales' take on the question.
First update with *no next scheduled update*!

Full text:
|
| NTSB issues seventh update on JAL Boeing 787 battery fire
| investigation
|
| February 1
|
| WASHINGTON - The National Transportation Safety Board today
| released the seventh update on its investigation into the
| Jan. 7 fire aboard a Japan Airlines Boeing 787 at Logan
| International Airport in Boston.
|
| The auxiliary power unit battery, manufactured by GS Yuasa,
| was the original battery delivered with the airplane on
| December 20, 2012. It is comprised of eight individual
| cells. All eight cells came from the same manufacturing lot
| in July 2012. The battery was assembled in September 2012
| and installed on the aircraft on October 15, 2012. It was
| first charged on October 19, 2012.
|
| Examination and testing of an exemplar battery got underway
| earlier this week at the Carderock Division of the Naval
| Surface Warfare Center laboratories in West Bethesda, MD.
| The tests consisted of electrical measurements, mass
| measurements, and infrared thermal imaging of each cell,
| with no anomalies noted. The cells are currently undergoing
| CT scanning to examine their internal condition. In
| addition, on Thursday, a battery expert from the Department
| of Energy joined the investigative team to lend his
| expertise to the ongoing testing and validation work.
|
| NTSB investigators were made aware of reports of prior
| battery replacements on aircraft in the 787 fleet, early in
| the investigation. As reported Tuesday, Boeing, a party to
| the investigation, is providing pertinent fleet information
| which investigators will review to determine if there is
| any relevance to the JAL investigation.
|
| An investigative group continued to interpret data from the
| two digital flight data recorders on the aircraft, and is
| examining recorded signals to determine if they might yield
| additional information about the performance of the battery
| and the operation of the charging system.
|
| Next week, the NTSB battery testing team will initiate a
| non-invasive "soft short" test of all cells of the exemplar
| battery. This test will reveal the presence of any high
| resistance, small or "soft" shorts within a cell. Also, an
| NTSB investigator will travel to France with the battery
| contactor from the JAL event battery, for examination at
| the manufacturer. The battery contactor connects a wiring
| bundle from the airplane to the battery.
|
| Investigators are continuing their work in Washington and
| Japan and the team in Seattle continues to observe the
| FAA-led review of the certification process for the 787
| battery system. The flow of information from these
| observations helps to inform NTSB investigative activity in
| the US and around the world.
|
http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2013/130201b.html

--bks

Boeing blows smoke:
| ...
| We now have hundreds of people at Boeing, some of our best
| and brightest, dedicated exclusively to solving this issue.
| In addition, we've tapped into the pool of Technical
| Fellows at Boeing, which offers deep knowledge across
| diverse technical areas. These individuals achieve this
| coveted designation after demonstrating expertise
| recognized by leaders in Boeing, as well as across the
| industry.
|
| We've also reached out to a handful of retired experts.
| Seven retired executives and technology leaders make up our
| Senior Advisory Group, which provides valuable
| experience-based perspective and counsel to teams designing
| and manufacturing. Together they have more than 230 years
| of collective Boeing experience and have been awarded a
| total of 46 industry awards and accolades.
| ...
http://boeingblogs.com/randy/archives/2013/02/when_the_going_gets_tough_boei.html

Seven retired executives? They must be joking.

--bks

On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 23:28:56 +0000 (UTC), (Bradley K.
Sherman) wrote:

Boeing blows smoke:
| ...
| We now have hundreds of people at Boeing, some of our best
| and brightest, dedicated exclusively to solving this issue.
| In addition, we've tapped into the pool of Technical
| Fellows at Boeing, which offers deep knowledge across
| diverse technical areas. These individuals achieve this
| coveted designation after demonstrating expertise
| recognized by leaders in Boeing, as well as across the
| industry.
|
| We've also reached out to a handful of retired experts.
| Seven retired executives and technology leaders make up our
| Senior Advisory Group, which provides valuable
| experience-based perspective and counsel to teams designing
| and manufacturing. Together they have more than 230 years
| of collective Boeing experience and have been awarded a
| total of 46 industry awards and accolades.
| ...
http://boeingblogs.com/randy/archives/2013/02/when_the_going_gets_tough_boei.html

Seven retired executives? They must be joking.

--bks
Your reading comprehension not too good, or your attention span
REALLY short. You forgot the "and technology leaders"

wrote:
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 23:28:56 +0000 (UTC), (Bradley K.
Sherman) wrote:
| ...
| We've also reached out to a handful of retired experts.
| Seven retired executives and technology leaders make up our
| Senior Advisory Group, which provides valuable
| ...
http://boeingblogs.com/randy/archives/2013/02/when_the_going_gets_tough_boei.html

Seven retired executives? They must be joking.

Your reading comprehension not too good, or your attention span
REALLY short. You forgot the "and technology leaders"

Is Boeing short of executives and "technology leaders"?
They're paying CEO McNerney $22,000,000/year. At that
price he should be able to figure out what's wrong with
the battery all by himself.

--bks