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#11
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Adam,
Socata TB-10 Tobago in its five-seat-version. Ours can be seen at www.d-edxw.de, more info at www.socata.org Big back seat with three belts. 900 lbs useful load. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
#12
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George,
The M-7-235 has the fifth seat. I believe the M-7-180 and 160 do not. I had the fifth seat and removed it. I lowered my insurance $500 a year. Michelle G.R. Patterson III wrote: Adam Aulick wrote: On the certificated side, it looks like a Skyhawk or its ilk would (barely) carry the load, but I understand there's no legal way to squeeze three kids in back of the four-place Cessnas and Pipers. You've been told wrong. Cessna made a "child seat" for the 150, 172, and 182 aircraft (and maybe others). This fits in the baggage compartment. Since the seat itself weighs a few pounds, you would probably want a 182. I don't know if Piper ever had the same sort of option, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that they did. The Maule M-7 (*not* the MX-7) also has a fifth seat in the baggage compartment. I've seen one, and it's really only good for a small child. I think the maximum load in that area is 50 pounds as well. George Patterson If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people he gives it to. -- Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P "Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike) Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity |
#13
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If you plan on flying Part 91, there is no requirement for each passenger to
have their own seatbelt. As stupid as it sounds, you could wrap your 3 kids in one seatbelt. Don't get me wrong, I'd never recommend it, but it was brought up to me by a DE on my CFII oral. He asked me how many people I could put in a 4 place aircraft and I spouted off the common answer of as many as the plane had seat belts for. He promptly told me "wrong, now where do you find the answer?" I admitted that I couldn't remember reading anywhere in the FAR's any such rule, other than the normal takeoff/landing rule, and he told me that it wasn't in the normally printed version of the FAR's, you'd have to get the Pre-Amble, which is about 3 inches thick. So, he dug out his copy, and turned to a flagged page that had highlights all over it. Basically, it went on about 135 and 121 operations must have one seatbelt for each occupant over the age of 2, but by no means should this be construed nor does it apply to part 91 operations as the FAR's only say that each passenger must be seatbelted, not that each passenger have his own seatbelt. The lesson has nothing to do with seatbelts, it has to do with common sense and the law. What might be legal, might not be safe, smart, or even make sense. I personally saw a guy load up a 182 with himself, his wife, 3 kids in the back seat, and 1 more kid in the "kiddy" seat in the baggage compartment (who had to crawl through the baggage door). Now think about how those kids would get out if the plane caught on fire. After hanging around airports enough, you will come to realize one of my favorite phrases. "You can see something stupid everyday, all you have to do is look." Get a Cherokee 6. Jim Burns "Adam Aulick" wrote in message om... I have the opposite problem from the usual "four seats doesn't mean four pax" problem -- I'm looking for an aircraft with typical four-place load (and price) to carry five small passengers and minimal baggage. What aircraft are out there on the used market (including hombuilts!) which can safely, legally, and economically carry two small adults (150 lbs each) three children (projected total weight in five years at ages 9,7,5: 170 lbs), 100 lbs baggage, and reasonable fuel, say 3 hrs? (570 lbs + fuel) On the certificated side, it looks like a Skyhawk or its ilk would (barely) carry the load, but I understand there's no legal way to squeeze three kids in back of the four-place Cessnas and Pipers. (Why not? Surely it's not that hard to add seatbelts!) What else is out there in the world that I haven't heard of, without moving up to a six-place plane? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.736 / Virus Database: 490 - Release Date: 8/9/2004 |
#14
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Michelle P wrote: The M-7-235 has the fifth seat. I believe the M-7-180 and 160 do not. The 160hp and 180hp planes are the MX series, which is why I specifically mentioned it as not having the seat. The 235 is the lowest powered M-7 Maule currently sells. I just checked, and the higher powered aircraft also have the fifth seat. George Patterson If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people he gives it to. |
#15
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Many Beech Sierras and some Musketeers/Sundowners were built with a
child seat in the baggage area, and were certificated to carry six people. I own a C24R Sierra (with 4 seats) and have also flown an A24R with pax in the "way back", as my son used to call it. The Sierra generally has about 1000 lbs useful, minus 60 gallons of fuel leaves 640 lbs payload---plenty for two adults and three small kids. If you stick with two 150lb adults, that leaves 340lbs for kids, dogs, and bags, and that's only if you insist on full tanks. I should note that the Sundowner gross is a bit less, but still plenty for your stated mission. Additionally, these models have a huge baggage door to enable access to the back, and the Sundowners and Sierras have a pilot's side door as well as passenger side. Economically? Yes, very. I get better mileage than most SUVs---my C24 cruises at 135 knots on 10.5gph, but if I throttle back just a little I can get 131 knots on 9.5gph, close to 14nm/gal. Price-wise you can probably locate a decent Musketeer Super III (model B23) or Sundowner (C23) for under US$45k, or a Sierra for US$55-70k. Fast? Not for a retract, but it's not a race. With a seat that comfy and a view that nice, I am in no hurry. The fixed-gear Musketeers are quite a bit slower than that, BTW, but the same logic applies. Note that many Sierras were built with only 4 seats, and installing the back seat retroactively is a very difficult thing. Here is a good place to visit: http://www.beechaeroclub.org hope this helps |
#16
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"Jim Burns" wrote in message
... If you plan on flying Part 91, there is no requirement for each passenger to have their own seatbelt. As stupid as it sounds, you could wrap your 3 kids in one seatbelt. Don't get me wrong, I'd never recommend it, but it was brought up to me by a DE on my CFII oral. Is it actually unsafe to have two people sitting side-by-side and sharing a seat belt, if their combined weight is within the belt's design limit? (I don't know; just asking.) --Gary |
#17
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"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:0pRSc.137433$eM2.73403@attbi_s51... Is it actually unsafe to have two people sitting side-by-side and sharing a seat belt, if their combined weight is within the belt's design limit? (I don't know; just asking.) Piper did it for years. Rich S. |
#18
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"Rich S." wrote in message ... Piper did it for years. Didn't Bell helicopters do it with their bench seat? |
#19
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(b) Each forward-facing or aft-facing seat/restraint system in normal,
utility, or acrobatic category airplanes must consist of a seat, a safety belt, and a shoulder harness, with a metal-to-metal latching device, that are designed to provide the occupant protection provisions required in §23.562. Sounds like you need a safety belt for each seat and the word occupant is singular. -- Cy Galley Safety Programs Editor EAA Sport Pilot "Rich S." wrote in message ... "Gary Drescher" wrote in message news:0pRSc.137433$eM2.73403@attbi_s51... Is it actually unsafe to have two people sitting side-by-side and sharing a seat belt, if their combined weight is within the belt's design limit? (I don't know; just asking.) Piper did it for years. Rich S. |
#20
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"Jim Burns" writes:
If you plan on flying Part 91, there is no requirement for each passenger to have their own seatbelt. Hmmm...I recently got a card for an STC to stick three people in the back of my Aztec. I'm just Part 91 so I wonder what good the STC would do? --kyler |
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