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#21
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preferrred bank angle indicator?
I have the TruTrak in my ASH26E, and am happy with it. As has been stated
before, if you don't have adequate instrument training, please get some before relying on any of these devices. Much like the ballistic parachute in the Cirrus aircraft - and that aircraft's relatively high accident rate, having a safety device and then relying on it to save you after making poor decisions, might be as bad as having no safety device at all. bumper "Matt Herron Jr." wrote in message ups.com... As a low time pilot (150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still can happen to even the most experienced pilots. I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes, using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators. From what was writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore, unless I was being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in an effort to keep my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot stress, and maximize my options, I am considering installing some type of bank angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a). I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power. Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or others that would do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me get out of the clouds alive. Thanks for any advice! |
#22
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preferrred bank angle indicator?
In article ,
bumper writes I have the TruTrak in my ASH26E, and am happy with it. As has been stated before, if you don't have adequate instrument training, please get some before relying on any of these devices. Much like the ballistic parachute in the Cirrus aircraft - and that aircraft's relatively high accident rate, having a safety device and then relying on it to save you after making poor decisions, might be as bad as having no safety device at all. bumper Is the instrument training you might get from a flying school in any way comparable with using a cloud to climb a bit higher? People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself? Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of vertical development should be quite innocuous. Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in the UK. -- Mike Lindsay |
#23
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preferrred bank angle indicator?
Mike Lindsay wrote:
People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself? Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of vertical development should be quite innocuous. Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in the UK. I've tried this in the UK in a cautious way by picking a small cloud with weak lift, monitoring 130.4 and making calls, then climbing 500 ft and opening airbrakes to descend. Instruments - turn-and slip + ASI. My first attempt was all over the place, and after maybe 30 seconds I had to open the airbrakes so that everything settled down and I gently subsided from the cloud. Later attempts have got me to the stage where I can climb reliably, but can't straighten up to fly out of the side of the cloud. If I get the wings level I start to lose control of speed,and by the time I get the speed back under control I'm in a turn again. I'm pretty sure I will eventually get this right, but it's going to take a lot of practice. Some points to note for the posters earlier in the thread who've never tried this but are *sure* it would be easy enough to cope: 1. Cloud is completely disorientating, and flying on instruments alone requires *intense* concentration. Even a 2 second lapse of attention means you lose it and will have difficulty getting things under control. If you don't practice the concentration, I doubt you could keep it up for long. 2. The wool/tell-tale is useless because it immediately sticks to the canopy, so you need a ball to recognise yaw. 3. Airspeed gets away from you very fast. I enter cloud trimmed for thermalling speed and nominate a speed 15 kts above that - if I reach that speed I open the airbrakes immediately (tip from various writers including Derek Piggott). 4. Trim position has to be by feel if you change it while in cloud, and this is I think my problem with straightening up. If I found myself in cloud unintentionally I wouldn't even try to fly it on instruments - open airbrakes, let go (assuming trim is for a sensible speed), let the glider fly me out of it (I hope). Once stabilised I might fire up the T&S and see what I could do, but delaying the airbrakes even a couple of seconds on entry might be enough for disaster to happen. Flying in cloud really is *much* more difficult than you might think. If anyone is fitting a bank/slip indicator "just in case", I reckon they are likely to pull the wings off in a spiral dive if they don't practice lots. I have the added luxury of a tailchute which, according to the manual, will stop a spin or spiral dive and keep me below VNE, but even so my nerves are jangling all the time in cloud. Those who have mastered this have all my admiration for their skills. |
#24
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preferrred bank angle indicator?
Not only no, but heck no!
Instrument training is relatively intense, with lots to learn and practice, including "unusual attitude" recovery with only partial panel (artificial horizon or AI covered, with only Turn Coordinator). The TC is not as stable in turbulence as a needle and ball (or TruTrac), as the gyro is at an angle to give yaw info - - this is why many pilots prefer a needle and ball as to the TC as back up. Bottom line, without adequate training and practice and proper instruments, if you are planning to go IMC, please remember that pilots with much more experience than you and I have either died or had to save themselves by bailing out when their spars snapped like twigs. bumper "Mike Lindsay" wrote in message ... In article , bumper writes I have the TruTrak in my ASH26E, and am happy with it. As has been stated before, if you don't have adequate instrument training, please get some before relying on any of these devices. Much like the ballistic parachute in the Cirrus aircraft - and that aircraft's relatively high accident rate, having a safety device and then relying on it to save you after making poor decisions, might be as bad as having no safety device at all. bumper Is the instrument training you might get from a flying school in any way comparable with using a cloud to climb a bit higher? People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself? Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of vertical development should be quite innocuous. Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in the UK. -- Mike Lindsay |
#25
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preferrred bank angle indicator?
Chris Reed wrote:
Mike Lindsay wrote: People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself? Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of vertical development should be quite innocuous. Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in the UK. I've tried this in the UK in a cautious way by picking a small cloud with weak lift, monitoring 130.4 and making calls, then climbing 500 ft and opening airbrakes to descend. Instruments - turn-and slip + ASI. My first attempt was all over the place, and after maybe 30 seconds I had to open the airbrakes so that everything settled down and I gently subsided from the cloud. Later attempts have got me to the stage where I can climb reliably, but can't straighten up to fly out of the side of the cloud. If I get the wings level I start to lose control of speed,and by the time I get the speed back under control I'm in a turn again. I'm pretty sure I will eventually get this right, but it's going to take a lot of practice. Some points to note for the posters earlier in the thread who've never tried this but are *sure* it would be easy enough to cope: 1. Cloud is completely disorientating, and flying on instruments alone requires *intense* concentration. Even a 2 second lapse of attention means you lose it and will have difficulty getting things under control. If you don't practice the concentration, I doubt you could keep it up for long. 2. The wool/tell-tale is useless because it immediately sticks to the canopy, so you need a ball to recognise yaw. 3. Airspeed gets away from you very fast. I enter cloud trimmed for thermalling speed and nominate a speed 15 kts above that - if I reach that speed I open the airbrakes immediately (tip from various writers including Derek Piggott). 4. Trim position has to be by feel if you change it while in cloud, and this is I think my problem with straightening up. If I found myself in cloud unintentionally I wouldn't even try to fly it on instruments - open airbrakes, let go (assuming trim is for a sensible speed), let the glider fly me out of it (I hope). Once stabilised I might fire up the T&S and see what I could do, but delaying the airbrakes even a couple of seconds on entry might be enough for disaster to happen. Flying in cloud really is *much* more difficult than you might think. If anyone is fitting a bank/slip indicator "just in case", I reckon they are likely to pull the wings off in a spiral dive if they don't practice lots. I have the added luxury of a tailchute which, according to the manual, will stop a spin or spiral dive and keep me below VNE, but even so my nerves are jangling all the time in cloud. Those who have mastered this have all my admiration for their skills. And remember, Chris is talking about intentionally entering a cloud at thermalling speed, and in relatively smooth air, not the turbulence often associated with 10+ knot lift. Imagine how much more difficult it would be for the pilot unintentionally sucked into a cloud, and likely going 90-100 knots as he enters. My advice to the original poster continues to be prevention is a far better tactic than a T&B, but if he wants to build some blind-flying skills with an instructor - go for it! Just don't imagine you can successfully use a T&B otherwise if you are ever sucked into a cloud. For the inexperienced (with a T&B) pilot caught above clouds while wave flying, a T&B might actually work out: usually, the pilot has some warning, he is already flying straight and level, and plans to keep it that way. He still needs to practice before hand. -- Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" |
#26
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preferrred bank angle indicator?
In article , Eric Greenwell
writes Chris Reed wrote: Mike Lindsay wrote: People make a BIG DEAL about getting IMC training before doing any unpowered cloud flying, but surely, if you know your sailplane and have proper instruments it is not too difficult to train yourself? Of course I am not suggesting you go for a cu-nim, or even something approaching freezing level, but a cu with about 1500 feet of vertical development should be quite innocuous. Fortunately we are still allowed to fly in cloud in the UK. I've tried this in the UK in a cautious way by picking a small cloud with weak lift, monitoring 130.4 and making calls, then climbing 500 ft and opening airbrakes to descend. Instruments - turn-and slip + ASI. My first attempt was all over the place, and after maybe 30 seconds I had to open the airbrakes so that everything settled down and I gently subsided from the cloud. Later attempts have got me to the stage where I can climb reliably, but can't straighten up to fly out of the side of the cloud. If I get the wings level I start to lose control of speed,and by the time I get the speed back under control I'm in a turn again. I'm pretty sure I will eventually get this right, but it's going to take a lot of practice. Some points to note for the posters earlier in the thread who've never tried this but are *sure* it would be easy enough to cope: 1. Cloud is completely disorientating, and flying on instruments alone requires *intense* concentration. Even a 2 second lapse of attention means you lose it and will have difficulty getting things under control. If you don't practice the concentration, I doubt you could keep it up for long. 2. The wool/tell-tale is useless because it immediately sticks to the canopy, so you need a ball to recognise yaw. 3. Airspeed gets away from you very fast. I enter cloud trimmed for thermalling speed and nominate a speed 15 kts above that - if I reach that speed I open the airbrakes immediately (tip from various writers including Derek Piggott). 4. Trim position has to be by feel if you change it while in cloud, and this is I think my problem with straightening up. If I found myself in cloud unintentionally I wouldn't even try to fly it on instruments - open airbrakes, let go (assuming trim is for a sensible speed), let the glider fly me out of it (I hope). Once stabilised I might fire up the T&S and see what I could do, but delaying the airbrakes even a couple of seconds on entry might be enough for disaster to happen. Flying in cloud really is *much* more difficult than you might think. If anyone is fitting a bank/slip indicator "just in case", I reckon they are likely to pull the wings off in a spiral dive if they don't practice lots. I have the added luxury of a tailchute which, according to the manual, will stop a spin or spiral dive and keep me below VNE, but even so my nerves are jangling all the time in cloud. Those who have mastered this have all my admiration for their skills. And remember, Chris is talking about intentionally entering a cloud at thermalling speed, and in relatively smooth air, not the turbulence often associated with 10+ knot lift. Imagine how much more difficult it would be for the pilot unintentionally sucked into a cloud, and likely going 90-100 knots as he enters. My advice to the original poster continues to be prevention is a far better tactic than a T&B, but if he wants to build some blind-flying skills with an instructor - go for it! Just don't imagine you can successfully use a T&B otherwise if you are ever sucked into a cloud. For the inexperienced (with a T&B) pilot caught above clouds while wave flying, a T&B might actually work out: usually, the pilot has some warning, he is already flying straight and level, and plans to keep it that way. He still needs to practice before hand. If you fly where there are 10 knotters regularly, you probably don't need to cloud fly. Lots of gliders this side has A/Hs which makes life a bit easier, although you do have to believe the instruments, not your ears, which might well be telling you something different, especially when you roll out of your thermal turn. -- Mike Lindsay |
#27
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preferrred bank angle indicator?
In article ,
bumper writes Not only no, but heck no! Instrument training is relatively intense, with lots to learn and practice, including "unusual attitude" recovery with only partial panel (artificial horizon or AI covered, with only Turn Coordinator). The TC is not as stable in turbulence as a needle and ball (or TruTrac), as the gyro is at an angle to give yaw info - - this is why many pilots prefer a needle and ball as to the TC as back up. Bottom line, without adequate training and practice and proper instruments, if you are planning to go IMC, please remember that pilots with much more experience than you and I have either died or had to save themselves by bailing out when their spars snapped like twigs. bumper So, what would you regard as 'proper instruments'? -- Mike Lindsay |
#28
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preferrred bank angle indicator?
I have culled the collective wisdom in this thread
to save any new followers time. Use of Trutrak T&B indicator for emergency cloud flying 1) To fly in a cloud means certain death or worse. 2) You should fly in clouds for practice. 3) Special training is required to survive a cloud flight. 4) You can train yourself. 5) Special instruments are necessary for cloud flight. 6) Instruments are worthless in a cloud. Following RAS for years this seems to be a fairly typical example of group guidance. The truth I suspect lies somewhere between the lines. Interesting to read however. |
#29
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preferrred bank angle indicator?
I'll tell you what I think to add to the confusion.
I believe if you want to avoid clouds that you can do so with foresight: If conditions are very strong indeed, don't go up to cloudbase and if you hit extreme lift, turn away and use full spoiler and highish speed to keep away. If you have messed up and end up in cloud then get as a minimum a T&S. A cheap refurbished unit will be fine. Practise out of cloud and you will see you can use it to roughly fly straight very easily, you will be able to get out of cloud by flying straight with full spoilers. If you want to fly in cloud and enjoy it, as I do, then get a horizon. It is pretty easy to fly on one and an order of magnitude easier than using a T&S for thermalling. A T&S gives you turn rate only but as we know, bank angle at a given speed is what gives you turn rate and that is what is important to monitor. The horizon is better at this than the often invisible real horizon out of cloud and I find I can fly more accurately with it in cloud than out of cloud. I use a T&S as a back up for cloud flying and a GPS to monitor headings to note the best bit of lift and to reposition in the cloud. Also to come out on the right heading. The GPS is a back up turn indicator too. "Gary Evans" wrote in message ... I have culled the collective wisdom in this thread to save any new followers time. Use of Trutrak T&B indicator for emergency cloud flying 1) To fly in a cloud means certain death or worse. 2) You should fly in clouds for practice. 3) Special training is required to survive a cloud flight. 4) You can train yourself. 5) Special instruments are necessary for cloud flight. 6) Instruments are worthless in a cloud. Following RAS for years this seems to be a fairly typical example of group guidance. The truth I suspect lies somewhere between the lines. Interesting to read however. |
#30
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preferrred bank angle indicator?
Gary Evans wrote:
I have culled the collective wisdom in this thread to save any new followers time. Use of Trutrak T&B indicator for emergency cloud flying I'd say close but not quite accurate: 1) To fly in a cloud means certain death or worse. Clearly not, because pilots do it and survive. I'd say, to fly in cloud without proper planning, instruments and knowledge of what you're doing is very risky indeed. However, letting down through a cloud layer via a benign spiral (if you know there's plenty of clear air beneath) is likely to be comparatively low risk. 2) You should fly in clouds for practice. For intentional cloud flying, my limited experience and more extensive reading tells me you need to keep in practice. Unintentional entry I wouldn't practice for, but I'd have an emergency plan (airbrakes out, trim back to best L/D or thereabouts, and don't mess with the controls). Many glider pilots can't practice because cloud flying is generally illegal in their countries. 3) Special training is required to survive a cloud flight. Not to survive (see 2 above), but to fly intentionally and successfully in cloud you need either training or an effective self-teaching programme (see next point). 4) You can train yourself. In theory you can - my self-training programme is derived from the writings of pilots, some of whom who taught themselves. I can't say yet whether it's a successful programme, or whether I'll carry on cloud flying if I do manage to teach myself successfully. The only thing I'm comfortable about is that the way I'm approaching this is not excessively risky. 5) Special instruments are necessary for cloud flight. Definitely. The acknowledged minimum is bank indicator (e.g. T&S) and ASI. From previous posts, Tru-Trak is not a true bank indicator, which means that its limitations need to be understood when using it. An artificial horizon is clearly easier because it gives you bank and pitch simultaneously. However, as the earlier poster who actually uses one points out, you need a T&S as backup in case the horizon fails. This is why I'm starting with T&S/ASI alone - the backup's no good to me if I can't use it. My reading suggests that relying on a horizon alone (which is effectively what you're doing, even if you have a T&S fitted, if you can't use it) is riskier than I care for. 6) Instruments are worthless in a cloud. Definitely no, if you mean horizon/T&S/horizon. Other instruments (except, I understand, a Bohli compass in the hands of an expert) are little or no use for maintaining control in cloud. Following RAS for years this seems to be a fairly typical example of group guidance. The truth I suspect lies somewhere between the lines. Interesting to read however. Like all RAS postings, you get a mix of experience and hearsay. Looking back over the thread, only four posters (including me) stated they had any experience of flying in cloud, though from the comments of some of the others they might also have done this. I tend to give rather more weight to postings which come from the pilot's own experience, which is as good a way as any other of sorting the wheat from the chaff. My advice to the original poster, from someone with approximately 1 more hour/6 flights in total cloud flying than he has, is to save his money on the Tru-Trak. Practice the benign spiral instead, as you never intend to fly in cloud intentionally. My hour has taken me to the stage where I am not completely out of control in cloud, but definitely not fully in control. All this in the easiest of cloud - intentional entry, gentle lift, little turbulence. Caught out by a wave gap closing does not strike me as the ideal conditions to begin your own training programme. |
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