Who is responsible?

"If the gliderport is operated unsafely, then you need to
find another place to fly.
Fred "

Since many of us operate out of club environments, I would argue that
if a gliderport is operated unsafely, it is your responsibility to try
to change that, not to just walk away. Even a commercial operation
that has unsafe, or perceived unsafe practices is worth trying to help
shore up the safety side of things.

As president of a soaring club, I can say for certain that the most
common statement people make is "You should do X for the club..."
Replace X with whatever you feel like. The point being, people tend
to want someone else to take responsibility for initiating change.

If you want the safety culture to change at your club or operation,
find a way to lead that change. That's really taking responsibility
for your own safety and helping out others.

Morgan

Originally Posted by Bob

On Oct 18, 7:57*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
JJ

It's all between a person's ears. Neuroscientists look at these sorts
of things. A recent article in Nature Neuroscience and also in
Science News Online, entitled "A mind for optimism - Reality checks
affect judgment more when prospects are rosier", discusses the concept
from scientists' viewpoints, with "data that suggests that brains with
sunny outlooks are particularly immune to undesirable
information" (such as you might get killed in a glider if you have
certain habits... resulting in the" It will never happen to me"
syndrome).

The article can be found at: http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...d_for_optimism.
Pilots can debate safety ad nausium, but people are pretty much gonna
do what they are gonna do, whatever we say. Regardless, most of us
will continue to try to change others' habits towards being safer. It
would appear that so far this year too many glider pilots have had too
much optimism.

More food for thought.
Bob T.

Safety...

It is a personal thing. I think it's obvious everyone here knows they are responsible for their own safety. But it took my kids for me to realize something--everyone sees or interprets things differently.

My son, when he was 18 months, liked to go down a very tall slide. So I would walk behind him as he went up the stairs to the top, then go down behind him. He would get a secure death grip with one hand, then move one foot, then new secure death grip with next hand, then next foot, etc. When he got older, same play ground, he'd cross the swinging bridge with both hands on the ropes-one of each side-walking along hand over hand as he moved across--not afraid, just safe.

My Daughter comes along two years later. Same park. She goes up the slide at 18 months too, fast, in my mind heedless of danger, moving hands and feet together, sometimes not even holding on. When older and she gets to the swinging bridge, she runs right across, no hands...

Same issues when they got to driving--Son, cautious, careful, double checks, takes his time. Daughter-zoom, bye Dad.

They're both responsible for their own safety, I raised independent kids. Both assess risk, safety needs differently. I need to add nothing to my Son--sometimes I tell him not to be so careful... My Daughter I have to admonish, warn, make her do the right thing.

Both are optimists, both honor grads and college students 3.0+, both pleasant, both hard workers.

If both were to fly, I'd have no worries about my son. My Daughter? I'd hope someone on the field would also be looking out for her safety. Ensuring she was thorough and removed a tail dolly, or locked the cockpit, having someone else mention maybe she shouldn't try a low pass just yet...

Prior to my kids I would have thought everyone knew they were responsible for their own safety, and would be safety concious. My son is like me. My daughter isn't. She's responsible for her own safety, her risk tolerance and care level is lower than I'd like. So safety does fall on all of us to pitch in as well, to do what we can, to recognize there are people who don't see some things as risky, that don't perceive the potential dangers to themselves of their actions--for whatever reason they are wired differently.

But that's just my nickle on the grass for the rest of you.

On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:57:07 -0700 (PDT), JJ Sinclair
wrote:

Who is primarily responsible for my safety?
(choose one)
A. My supervisor
B. My boss
C. My club
D. My FBO
E. Contest Director
F. Contest Manager
G. Rules Committee
H. Soaring Society of America
I. Soaring Safety Foundation
J. FAA
K. NTSB
L. Me

The answer to that question is only useful for one thing: Helping your
estate win the lawsuit after you're dead.

The more meaningful question is "Whom do I TRUST with my safety?"

rj

On Oct 18, 7:57*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
Who is primarily responsible for my safety?
* * (choose one)
A. My supervisor
B. My boss
C. My club
D. My FBO
E. Contest Director
F. Contest Manager
G. Rules Committee
H. Soaring Society of America
*I. Soaring Safety Foundation
J. FAA
K. NTSB
L. Me

I got to thinking about the safety responsibility issue, so I started
asking a few people. Got several of the above optipns, but the best
one was, "My husband, Jim",

Food for thought,
JJ

There is one that you left off: the glider manufacturer. And not just
for the original production, but also for on-going airworthiness.

And I actually find myself depending upon the FAA since I installed a
transponder, although I trust the heavy iron TCAS somewhat more.

Tom

It's a trick question - the answer is really "all of the above, plus
others".

The pilot clearly has the majority of the safety responsibility, but
he couldn't be safe no matter how hard he tried unless others
participated as well. As an illustration, consider the designer of the
aircraft, the unknown craftsmen who made it, the test pilot who
explored its flight envelope, the A&P who inspected it, the aerotow
pilot who launched the flight, and the flight instructors that taught
the pilot his skills. JJ's list adds the regulatory side of flight,
people who also contribute to safety no matter how much we mock them.
As John Donne said, "no man is an island", and a pilot exemplifies
that saying.

One thing I always keep in mind while flying is that it isn't a
natural thing for us humans. We're airborne courtesy of a lot of smart
people who developed some wonderful machines. But engineering
compromises and uncommon aerial situations exist - we always need to
be wary, as Ernest K. Gann said. I know that I fly wary, because
unlike when I'm driving to work, I can remember every second of a
flight after I land. That's a good thing, because there's always
something to be learned that will help make me a better pilot, even
after a good flight.

-John

On Oct 18, 10:57 am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
Who is primarily responsible for my safety?
(choose one)
A. My supervisor
B. My boss
C. My club
D. My FBO
E. Contest Director
F. Contest Manager
G. Rules Committee
H. Soaring Society of America
I. Soaring Safety Foundation
J. FAA
K. NTSB
L. Me

I got to thinking about the safety responsibility issue, so I started
asking a few people. Got several of the above optipns, but the best
one was, "My husband, Jim",

Food for thought,
JJ

The PIC!

Be careful or it might be Donald Trump

Princess Dalra from Thoron is responsible for my safety.

as an itinerant renter, I can tell you that every place I have rented -- about 6 leading glider clubs and commercial orgs across the country -- has its own idea of safety.

this is just an abbreviated list of differences:

1. some places have tie downs, some have wing stands, some have nothing
2. some require canopies to be down all the time, other places leave them up all the time
3. some places people have their hands on the canopy all the time, some places you can never touch the canopy
4. some places you open and shut the canopy by the rails, other places you can only operate the canopy by reaching in and using the handle
5. some places you push on the canopy to check secure, other places its verboten, or you are expected to look at the locking pins
6. some places the only thing you do is rudder wag, other places you have a wing runner, other places, you have to call the tow pilot and say "brakes locked, canopy locked, slack out" and then you can wag.
7. everyone has their own tow position they like: hstab centered on the wings, hstab at the top of the wing, hstab on the mirrors, etc. boxing the wake (remember, this is a checkout) is a whole 'nother set of parameters regarding positioning, rudder versus aileron, and whether to pause for 1/2 a second or 2 seconds, or somewhere in between, and everyone likes 'em different
8. everyone has their own favorite set of stall series, MCA, and various banks of turns. for steep turns, it could be the triangle, 50, Va, or some other number
9. on landing, everyone has their own set of IP, downwind distance from the runway ("fly over that road", "1/4 mile", "45 degrees"), base leg distance (at the threshold, 1/2 mile past the threshold, but not too far if you have a large headwind on final)
10. no speedbrakes until on base or final, never more than 1/2 speed brakes, never close the speedbrakes, etc etc
11. before landing checklist -- RUFSTALL, factory placard, this here laminated one
12. base landing speed. triangle, 1.5*Vs0, some random number which is "what we do here"
13. high energy landing or low energy landing
14. roll out straight, roll out straight but if you can move over to side of the runway into the dirt or grass, turn to get off the runway but dont groundloop
15. use the brakes, don't use the brakes, test the brakes when you land but don't use them, test the brakes when you land and use them to stop at a designated point on the runway
16. come to a stop at that intersection so you can push off there, ... stop past the instersection because the towplanes need to use it, ...stop at the staging area
17. get out of the glider when you stop, don't get out of the glider when you stop
18. radio calls -- only on downwind, on the 45, 45/downwind/base/final, depends on how much traffic there is

this is a serious list. i have had every single one of these instructions.

there is absolutely no standardization in what is expected from gliderport to gliderport

on these checkouts, I have become a chameleon, asking lots of questions in order to satisfy the CFI. at the end of the day, when I'm PIC, i do my best to take care of the glider as if it were my own, to stay out of the way of other aircraft, and to operate safely.

--bob

Uhhh... I think the correct answer is "Yes, definitely."