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Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 26th 19, 10:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charles Ethridge
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Posts: 33
Default Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?

Hi all.

First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.

I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare.

The question has two parts:

1. Are off-airport landouts common?

I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests.. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports?

The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.

2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?

The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.

Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122):

"During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!"

But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?

Charles "Ben" Ethridge
  #2  
Old May 26th 19, 10:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Taylor
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Default Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?

Ben,

As with most things it depends. I tend to fall in the same camp as Garret. Landing out should be a normal and regular thing. It does depend on your location and fields available. Some sites have plentiful fields and landing out is a non-event. Some areas have limited fields and more caution is required. Damage on a off-field landing should be extremely rare, otherwise the field was not a good one to begin with.

It is important for xc pilots to get comfortable landing off-field. Many pilots have damaged gliders or hurt themselves trying to stretch a glide into an airport when there where good fields they have passed up.

In cross country we often land in fields we have never seen before. As you fly and even drive it is good to start looking at fields to assess if you could land in them. The type of crop, height, irrigation systems, normal fencing, etc. With this your mental map of can develop so that you can have the spatial awareness of potential fields in reach at all times. Even when we are racing we are scanning around us to ensure that there are fields that meet our criteria within reach.

Landing out should not be something to fear, but should be respected. I encourage you to talk with local xc pilots about the fields in your area. A good exercise is to pick on close to home while you are high enough to have options and land in it.



  #3  
Old May 26th 19, 10:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie Quebec
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Posts: 253
Default Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?

Outlanding training is mandatory before XC here, how can you get to,be a CFI and not be well versed in field landings.
A well conducted outlanding is quite safe.
  #4  
Old May 26th 19, 11:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,124
Default Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:00:05 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
Hi all.

First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world.

I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare.

The question has two parts:

1. Are off-airport landouts common?

I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports?

The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range.

2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit?

The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price.

Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122):

"During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!"

But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport?

Charles "Ben" Ethridge


In 46 years of soaring, 42 of which have included contest flying, I have had one bad experience when my ego pushed me into a bad situation that required an infamous water landing. I estimate I have done more than 100 field landings with only a few scratches.
Can it be done safely? Yes
Can bad luck , like gopher hole happen? Yes
Do you have to fly to only land on airports? I don't think so.
The most important skill is being able to habitually put the glider where you want it at low energy.
The most important judgement is knowing when to stop soaring and start landing.
Being afraid to land out eventually can lead to taking a big risk to get on an airport, or being so risk averse that you miss a lot of what cross country flying is all about.
Good Luck
UH
  #5  
Old May 26th 19, 11:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 1,383
Default Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?

Hmmmm.....great thoughts .

I have landed "off airport" more times than I want to count (likely pushing 3 digits.....sigh....).
Worst damage, pulled a gear door hinge off a ship. Fixed that night, flew next day.
Quite a few "grass stains" or gelcoat scratches from imbedded rocks in a field.

Part of the decades long rules for the Thanksgiving "contest" at HHSC called the Snowbird.
Precision time, touchdown, "parking" to a cone. All get scored in one flight over 2 days.
Goal????
Energy management putting the ship where you want when you want.
Amazing peeps that need to "practice" for this, to me and others.....basic skill for XC. You should do reasonably well if you're current.....

As to off airport landings.....first rule.....DON'T hurt the ship!!! Ship OK, pilot OK (other than pride....).

Yes, I have made bad decisions and successfully landed in places others said impossible. I am running out of luck.....I try to avoid luck.....looking for better decisions.....

As to original question.....not being sharp on putting the ship where you want when you want, not knowing what to look for, "hoping" things will work out, sometimes just bad luck......the better prepped you are (plan every landing to a spot....no exceptions....!!!)....and no "land wherever, others will move it back".....wrong....put it where you want it, deal with issues when they arise....they WILL arise....
  #6  
Old May 27th 19, 01:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,403
Default Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 3:05:07 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:00:05 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:

[snip]

... when my ego pushed me into a bad situation that required an infamous water landing. I estimate I have done more than 100 field landings with only a few scratches.


Uh could we *please* have the water landing story there. Purely for educational purposes :-)

We keep recycling the same few landout stories out West, Ramy landing in the not dry dry lake, various folks who were "low following Peter Deane and then...", or glassholes who could not start their motorglider engine.
  #7  
Old May 27th 19, 02:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 55
Default Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?

Wasn’t the water landing detailed in “A Fine Week of Soaring”?
  #8  
Old May 27th 19, 02:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 160
Default Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?

"If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price."


Ben, already a lot of good answers below. Two points, one is raise the hull value of your glider so it would be replaceable. It is YOUR DECLARED VALUE, not what you bought it for. An increase in hull value will probably not cost you as much as you think, and damage to your glider where the hull value is too low will certainly cost you more than you want.

On landing out, Wind, Wires, Slope, Surface. Slope almost always trumps wind. If you can see it from the air, land up slope.

Kevin Anderson
92
  #9  
Old May 27th 19, 02:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Brian[_1_]
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Posts: 399
Default Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?


Yes definitely educate yourself on perils of underinsuring. Short version is that the insurance company may total it and take the glider for something that should really repaired.

Brian
  #10  
Old May 27th 19, 02:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann[_2_]
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Posts: 177
Default Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?

This TOTALLY depends on where you fly. In MN south of the Twin Cities, at this time of year there are lots of freshly plowed fields and landing out is no problem at all if you pick a good field. Later in the summer when the corn gets tall, it's a little dicier.

In South Florida landing out is dangerous. You either have orange groves, plowed fields with very deep ditches, everglades that may look pretty benign from the air, but have waves of grass hiding serious coral heads, and absolutely no way to get access to retrieve the glider, or pasture land that has significant obstacles that are hard to see from the air, but which are the reason they are not plowed fields or orchards.
 




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