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What First Glider to own?



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 3rd 10, 03:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
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Posts: 1,224
Default What First Glider to own?

On Thu, 02 Dec 2010 18:41:33 -0800, brianDG303 wrote:


Sparky,
A few years ago I made a quasi-scientific weighted chart to determine
the best glider to buy, and in your price range it's a Libelle. Very
good value, light and easy to rig. Might give it a look.

I've had mine since mid-2006 and love it: easy to rig, light & precise
handling at all speeds, excellent all-round visibility and its the most
spin-resistant single seater I've flown. Yes, the air-brakes are weak,
but if slips very well and controllably - a fair trade-off I think.

However, do sit in one before going out to buy - they definitely suit
long, lean people rather than the well-fed or broad shouldered. Its a
great help to have the over-shoulder stowage: this is a semi-circular bag
that clips onto the spars behind the seat. Their only serious issue is a
tendency to snap-rotate on a winch launch - if you get one and want to
winch it, make sure you're winch current and GET A BRIEFING FROM SOMEBODY
WHO HAS WINCHED A LIBELLE before you try it: there is no guidance about
this in the POH. Aero towing is simple and easy.

Apart from that, what Aerodyne says: fly as many different club and
rental gliders before you buy as possible to get an idea of performance,
comfort and generally what suits you.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #22  
Old December 3rd 10, 03:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Juanman
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Posts: 26
Default What First Glider to own?

GBSC's B4 and L33 are perfectly competent gliders that are
underutilized. The B4 is quite well instrumented too (SN10 thanks to
Dave Nadler). Over the years several members have taken advantage of
this and done long flights in them.

That gives you time to mull which glider to buy. Partnerships are a
great way to get a better glider and split expenses. Few people have
that much time to fly these days.

Juan
  #23  
Old December 3rd 10, 04:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Berry[_2_]
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Posts: 107
Default What First Glider to own?



Sparky,
A few years ago I made a quasi-scientific weighted chart to determine
the best glider to buy, and in your price range it's a Libelle. Very
good value, light and easy to rig. Might give it a look.



I would also recommend a Libelle:

Nearly everyone holds Libelles as beautiful and I couldn't agree more.

Light wings and easiest to rig.

Automatic control hookups except for the ailerons. Ailerons connect with
simple pins that are permanently attached on 201 Libelles. The
connections are also conveniently located and in plain sight.

Very well engineered. Not many AD's.

Very good finish quality.

Excellent climb in weak conditions.

Overall performance is good enough that you won't "outgrow" it in a
couple of seasons. Sports/Club class handicap is competitive.

My own preference is the 301 Libelle simply because the flap handle
gives me something to do with my left hand (prevents blindness on long
x-country flights), the "low" canopy looks cool, and the tailchute
impresses the chicks. However, standard Libelles handle better and are
much more plentiful.

Alternatives:

The Standard Cirrus is a real joy as well. I absolutely love the light
controls on the Cirrus.

Expensive parts or not, I would never dismiss an LS-4 if you can find
one and can afford it. There has never been a better 1st glider than an
LS-4.

A Discus would be about as good as the LS-4 for a first glider, but with
the better performance, you would keep it longer.

ASW-19's are OK, but overpriced for performance because they look sexy.
ASW-15's are is great handling since they are bascially a glass Ka-6,
but you'll outgrow one too quickly if you fly much x-country or race.

H301 Libelle #19, "WB"
  #24  
Old December 3rd 10, 05:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jcarlyle
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Posts: 522
Default What First Glider to own?

I think Nigel's comments, while true, are a bit of a red herring.

Yes, Friedl Weber has gone nuts and imposed a 245 Euro annual contract
on older DG and LS gliders, which allows you to buy spares (if they
have them!)) and be sent an updated maintenance manual specific to you
and your aircraft. EASA has taken a dim view, and allowed European
owners to use the original maintenance manual. The FAA has always
allowed US owners to use the original maintenance manual.

Spares are a concern, but unfortunately that's true for almost any
older aircraft. I have personal experience with this on a Schleicher.
One way to solve the spares problem is by buying parts from an
unairworthy aircraft, or by going to an aircraft broker. If you're in
the US, you can also take the aircraft experimental and either make or
have your own part made.

I personally would not pass up a nice example of an older LS aircraft
in a decent Cobra trailer.

-John

On Dec 2, 3:24 pm, Nigel Cottrell wrote:
Be aware that if you buy an older DG or sadly LS you will find
maintenance very expensive due to the attitude of the present
owner of the factory. See other threads and/or DG website.

On Dec 2, 3:16 pm, Nigel Cottrell wrote:
So long as it isn't a DG or sadly an LS, you might find spares
very expensive to come by (see other threads)



  #25  
Old December 3rd 10, 06:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jb92563
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Posts: 137
Default What First Glider to own?

There are a few Experimental Gliders with great performance bang for
the buck and are great performers.
Also Experimentals can be maintained by YOU with the help of an
aircraft mechanic for annuals.
You dont see experimentals being grounded by AD's making your
investment a complete loss like the Blanik L-13.


The Schreder HP Experiementals are a great buy. I bought my 40+ year
old HP-11 for $6,000 with a good trailer.
Its had 9 owners and they have completed Diamonds etc in them.
Its all metal and I leave it outside rigged in the blistering CA sun
and occasional rain, year round and its virtually maintenance free. L/
D ~37:1

Its durable and learning Flaps is easy and less scray than you have
heard and gives you capabilities to exceed your best expectations,
with flap assisted slow thermalling and reflex flaps for top end
speed. and full flaps to get in to incredibly small postage stamp
sized fields. I now prefer flaps to spoilers alone and I think most
people would too if they gave it a try.

Its also a rugged and durable design and will out survive a fiberglass
model with reduced maintenance required.

You should check out the HP-11, HP-14, HP-18 and RS-15 in the Schreder
line at soaridaho. com, mostly under $15K

To fly one is to become a believer in late 60's high performance
contest proven technology. Plus you can afford all those extra tows
and road trips with the money you save.

Save for the modern glass while you have fun in the Schreders and pass
along your HP when you are ready to move up....they last forever.

Ray


On Dec 2, 11:05*am, Sparkorama
wrote:
I'm getting back into the sport after a long hiatus and flying in the
Boston area. I'll be putting some winter flying time in and I'm
considering buying my first glider once I'm back to comfortable solos
and my private license. (Naturally, I won't fly anything until I am
competent and ready). Any suggestions on a first glider? Because of my
price range, I realize I'll be looking at some older birds. I would say
my preferences are as follows. Under 20k, easy to fly, easy to maintain
and safe. Naturally, I'd like to see some decent glide performance, just
thinking that some future performance would be good for keeping the
plane for some time. *(currently I'm considering an IS29D2 Lark)
My club has competent instructors and the following fleet (winter flying
in only the 2-33):
1 Puchacz (two place, 30/1 performance; advanced trainer, aerobatic)
3 Blanik L-23 (two place, 30/1 performance; advanced trainer,
sightseeing)
1 Blanik L-33 solo (single place, 30/1 performance; cross-country,
sightseeing)
1 Schweitzer 1-34 (single place, 34/1 performance)
1 Pilatus B-4 (single place, 35/1 performance; cross-country,
aerobatic)
1 Schweizer 2-33A (two place, 23/1 performance; trainer)
1 Schweizer 1-26E (single place, 23/1 performance; aerobatic)
Your thoughts would be appreciated.

--
Sparkorama


  #26  
Old December 3rd 10, 07:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Westbender
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Posts: 154
Default What First Glider to own?

I live in the US and was in your shoes about five years ago. I used a
few different resources to try and qualify what ships would suit me
best as a first-time owner and low-time pilot. If you can get a hold
of a hard copy of the "Sailplane Directory", there's a nice section in
there by Derek Piggot relating to the characteristics of all the
different sailplanes. He gives ratings for things like ease of
rigging, handling, cockpit size, whether they're good for low-timers,
etc. Derek Piggot also published a book called "Gliding Safety". In
it is a chapter where he discusses what types of ships are good for
first-time owners/low-time pilots. The information is similar to the
"Sailplane Directory", but has a little more in-depth analysis on some
of the different ships. Using these resources would be a good first
step toward narrowing down your possibilities.

As for me, I ended up creating a short list of the ships I was
interested in based on the same budget as yours. After substantial
research, this short list ended up with the following standard class
ships; Libelle 201, Grob 102 Astir, LS1f, LS4, DG101, ASW19. I then
proceeded to go through the FAA registration database and send letters
to owners of these types asking for information based on their
experience and if they're interested in selling. The LS4, well known
as probably the best of this bunch, turned out to be the most
expensive. It was outside of my budget, so I had to eliminate it. Of
the remaining ships on the list, the LS1f turned out to have a lot of
the excellent qualities of the LS4 with a bit less L/D and a bit more
age. So that became my primary focus. I had some possible deals for
Libelles and Grobs, but I held out hoping to find an LS1f. As luck
would have it, three of the LS1f owners that responded to my letters
indicated they would be interested in selling. I looked at the first
one and the gel coat had completely failed and the trailer was wooden
junk. However the second one was in excellent shape and I made a deal
on the spot that was well within my budget after an inspection was
done. It also had a nicely built Schreder trailer with rigging/tow-out
gear as well as a brand new Cambridge 302 installed.

As an owner of an LS1f, I can certainly vouch for it. Although take
that with a grain of salt as I'm still a low-timer. In my experience,
the LS1f is a wonderful ship. Great control harmony, light feel,
extremely easy to rig, solid German engineering, and flies like it's
on rails. The only downside is cockpit size. It's a bit small. I'm 5'
7", 180 pounds and it fits me like a glove (although taller pilots
have also flown it comfortably with some adjustments in the seat back
and rudder pedals). It feels as though I'm wearing it when I fly. Very
comfortable for long-duration flights. The wings seem to come right
out of my shoulders making me feel like I'm one with the ship. A
couple of the experienced pilots in my club have flown it and raved
about it. One of them is a phenomenal pilot that has 3,500 plus hours
in quite a few types of glass ships.

Food for thought.

Good luck in your search. Take your time and try to talk to various
people who actually own the types you're looking at. There's lots of
good opinions from good pilots, but owners will have the best insight
into a particular type. I got excellent response from my letters that
turned into many quality conversations on the phone about these
various ships.
  #27  
Old December 3rd 10, 08:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
vontresc
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Posts: 216
Default What First Glider to own?

I can vouch for Dave's LS-1F as it lives right next to my Ka-6Cr, and
it's a beautiful ship.

If you are looking to get a budget minded ship with decent performance
ths Ka-6 isn't too bad. Close to 30:1 and pretty good XC potential if
you can find the thermals. And if you don't the bakes on them can get
you into just about any alfalfa field :-)

Beyond that the Ka-6 is a dream to fly. It's well harmonized, and
really doesn't have any bad flying habits. If you still have the
offset CG hook youll need to be aware of it's quirks, but it's nowhere
close to the boogeyman people make it out to be. Assmbly is petty
straight forward, and the control hookups are right out in the open
(none of that l'hotellier junk...).

Best of all you can find some pretty good deals on the beautiful old
wooden birds. I got mine in pretty decent shape with a workable
trailer for $4500. Oh yes and parts do grow on trees :-)

Pete
  #28  
Old December 3rd 10, 08:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Westbender
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Posts: 154
Default What First Glider to own?

And if you don't the brakes on them can get
you into just about any alfalfa field :-)



Stated from experience.

Don't forget the outlying airfields... P
  #29  
Old December 3rd 10, 09:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
rlovinggood
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Posts: 268
Default What First Glider to own?

I would also recommend a Libelle:

Nearly everyone holds Libelles as beautiful and I couldn't agree more.



I'll have to disagree, to some extent, with WB.

Beautiful, yes. But only in a rare time when seen from a higher
vantage point and having to twist neck to look back and down.

Really ugly when seen from below and well out in front of my typical
vantage point. :-)

And yes, the low canopy really improves the look of this classic
glider.

I'll second what others have said: Make sure you get a good trailer
with all the bits in working order. Not much sucks more than a
knuckle-busting trailer.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS1-d




  #30  
Old December 3rd 10, 10:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Mara
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Posts: 375
Default What First Glider to own?

How Dare you! ??!

Libelle is "UGLY"???? and this coming for a guy with an LS1C?????

Glass houses!
Tim )

"rlovinggood" wrote in message
...
I would also recommend a Libelle:

Nearly everyone holds Libelles as beautiful and I couldn't agree more.



I'll have to disagree, to some extent, with WB.

Beautiful, yes. But only in a rare time when seen from a higher
vantage point and having to twist neck to look back and down.

Really ugly when seen from below and well out in front of my typical
vantage point. :-)

And yes, the low canopy really improves the look of this classic
glider.

I'll second what others have said: Make sure you get a good trailer
with all the bits in working order. Not much sucks more than a
knuckle-busting trailer.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS1-d





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