Helicopter Question

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:02:36 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
wrote in
::

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
[...]
That doesn't seem to be what you are saying above. Did I miss
something?

I don't know what you missed. But the text you quoted doesn't contradict
anything I wrote.

I'm having difficulty with this particular clause of what you wrote:

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 11:15:30 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
wrote in
::

Since a pilot can get a Special VFR clearance pretty much anywhere that
there *isn't* Class G airspace near the surface (generally below 700 or
1200 feet, depending), ...

It seems to contradict:

§ 91.157 Special VFR weather minimums.

(a) ... , special VFR operations may be conducted under the
weather minimums and requirements of this section [Special VFR],
instead of those contained in §91.155 [VFR], below 10,000 feet MSL
WITHIN THE AIRSPACE CONTAINED BY THE UPWARD EXTENSION OF THE
LATERAL BOUNDARIES OF THE CONTROLLED AIRSPACE DESIGNATED TO THE
SURFACE OF AN AIRPORT.

I find your qualification of "pretty much anywhere that there *isn't*
Class G airspace" to lack any mention of the necessity for the Special
VFR clearance to be flown within the CONTROLLED AIRSPACE SURFACE AREA
OF AN AIRPORT. So I must be misinterpreting what you wrote, or FAR
§91.157.

If you are near the surface (less than 700', for example) and you are not in
Class G, it is practically certain that you are "within the airspace
contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the
controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport".

Ah. So implicit in being less than 700' AGL while being in Class B,
C, D or E controlled airspace, is the notion that you are within an
airport's surface area of controlled airspace, for it is the only
controlled airspace charted to the surface.

If you were not in such protected airspace, you'd be in the Class G
underlying the Class E (assuming there's any Class E in the neighborhood at
all). In Class G airpace, the Special VFR clearance isn't required [nor
available]; the helicopter enjoys the lack of a minimum visibility
requirement without one [a clearance] there.

In decades of flying, I had never considered the fact that controlled
airspace ONLY reaches the surface at airport surface areas be they
controlled airports or not.

For all practical purposes, helicopters can fly in arbitrarily low visibility.
91.155 grants them this right in Class G airspace [without benefit of a
clearance], and 91.157 grants them this right elsewhere [within controlled
airspace, BECAUSE it extends to the surface ONLY over airports] (with a Special
VFR clearance).

If "91.157 grants them this right elsewhere (with a Special VFR
clearance)," it must be possible to obtain Special VFR clearance at
(for example in southern California):

Paso Robles (PRB) an uncontrolled airport
Blythe (BLH) an uncontrolled airport
Needles (EED) an uncontrolled airport
Desert Resorts Regional (TRM) an uncontrolled airport
Imperial Co (IPL) an uncontrolled airport
Within the Class E surface extensions of many controlled airports

Is that actually the case?

I'm not an EMS pilot, but crew with the UW MedFlight program in
Madison, WI. We are actually one of the few programs that is certified
to fly IFR with patients. We have Augusta 109 Powers with dual Garmin
430's and FADEC, auto-pilots etc, etc.
All very nice.
But we will NOT fly in ANY weather.
Being a pilot myself, I was curious when I first started doing this
what the pilots attitude about weather decisions would be, especially
since the first program I flew with (LIFELINE in Indianapolis) was VFR
only.
I have found that our pilot are very professional, and VERY
conservative about the weather despite our capabilities. With the
recent spotlight on EMS operations (including the several front page
articles on "USA Today" and national news reports), the recent spate of
accidents, including a program losing two 109's recently, and the fact
that something like 10% of the EMS fleet has been lost/involved in
accidents in the last 5 years; this is appropriate.
With our daily crew briefings, the pilots try to stress the safety
aspect. I think we are all too aware that one bad decision or problem
seperates us from a smoking hole in the ground. What has surprised me
is that it is not an attitude of "that won't happen to us" that seems
to permeate much of aviation (and sometimes medicine) but an attitude
of "if it can happen to them, it can happen to us, so pay attention!
(and unofficially: keep your head out of your rectum!).
I enjoy the EMS flying immensely, it can be quite challenging at times
just from a medical perspective, let alone adding in the challenges of
flight.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
[...]
I find your qualification of "pretty much anywhere that there *isn't*
Class G airspace" to lack any mention of the necessity for the Special
VFR clearance to be flown within the CONTROLLED AIRSPACE SURFACE AREA
OF AN AIRPORT.

Why?

Pick a point in space that is "near the surface" (for the purposes of this
discussion, let's say 500', but anything lower than the floor of the basic
Class E airspace would be fine) that is NOT Class G airspace. The odds that
you can obtain a Special VFR clearance in that airspace are excellent,
because near the surface, the usual reason for the airspace NOT being Class
G airspace is that it's the controlled airspace around an airport.

So I must be misinterpreting what you wrote, or FAR §91.157.

Yup, you must be.

[...]
Ah. So implicit in being less than 700' AGL while being in Class B,
C, D or E controlled airspace, is the notion that you are within an
airport's surface area of controlled airspace, for it is the only
controlled airspace charted to the surface.

Yes. If you understand this, I don't see why you still don't understand
what I wrote.

[...]
In decades of flying, I had never considered the fact that controlled
airspace ONLY reaches the surface at airport surface areas be they
controlled airports or not.

Why not? And why is that relevant here?

[...]
If "91.157 grants them this right elsewhere (with a Special VFR
clearance)," it must be possible to obtain Special VFR clearance at
(for example in southern California):

Paso Robles (PRB) an uncontrolled airport
Blythe (BLH) an uncontrolled airport
Needles (EED) an uncontrolled airport
Desert Resorts Regional (TRM) an uncontrolled airport
Imperial Co (IPL) an uncontrolled airport
Within the Class E surface extensions of many controlled airports

Is that actually the case?

Yes. A tower at the airport in question is not required for a Special VFR
clearance.

Pete

wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm not an EMS pilot, but crew with the UW MedFlight program in
Madison, WI. We are actually one of the few programs that is certified
to fly IFR with patients. We have Augusta 109 Powers with dual Garmin
430's and FADEC, auto-pilots etc, etc.
All very nice.
But we will NOT fly in ANY weather.

Nor should you. The point here is simply that helicopters are governed by
less-restrictive visibility requirements than are fixed-wing aircraft.

On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 10:25:28 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
wrote in
::


Yes. A tower at the airport in question is not required for a Special VFR
clearance.

I had no idea that was the case, but the AIM confirms it:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0404.html#4-4-5
b. When a control tower is located within the Class B, Class C, or
Class D surface area, requests for clearances should be to the
tower. In a Class E surface area, a clearance may be obtained from
the nearest tower, FSS, or center.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
Yes. A tower at the airport in question is not required for a Special VFR
clearance.

I had no idea that was the case, but the AIM confirms it:

Yes, I know.

For what it's worth, it helps to remember that a Special VFR clearance is in
essence an IFR clearance for VFR traffic (even though, obviously, it's not
literally an IFR clearance at all). That is, the Special VFR clearance has
the same effect for the VFR aircraft than an IFR approach clearance has for
an IFR aircraft: it dedicates the controlled airspace protecting the
approach and airport to that one aircraft.

So, just as one can obtain an IFR approach clearance for an uncontrolled
airport, one can obtain a Special VFR clearance for an uncontrolled airport,
and for the same reasons.

Pete

I enjoy the EMS flying immensely, it can be quite challenging at times
just from a medical perspective, let alone adding in the challenges of
flight.

Thanks for chiming in, Ryan -- I hadn't heard from you since OSH. Glad to
see you're keeping busy! :-)

10% of the EMS fleet has been involved in an accident in the last 5 years?
That's incredible! You have to wonder at what point the public will start
doing a cost/benefit analysis of helicopter rescue ops.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

10% of the EMS fleet has been involved in an accident in the last 5 years?
That's incredible! You have to wonder at what point the public will start
doing a cost/benefit analysis of helicopter rescue ops.

Let's hope they don't. The public is scared enough of general aviation
as it is.

In all seriousness though, ground ambulances don't have that great of a
safety record, either, and they're SLOW. When it comes right down to
it, air evacuation is still the way go to in some places - for the speed
factor alone.

And even if the public hasn't noticed the accident rate, someone else
has. :-) I can't tell you how much scrutiny we were under this year -
way too many visits from FSDO.

On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:11:37 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
wrote in
::


So, just as one can obtain an IFR approach clearance for an uncontrolled
airport, one can obtain a Special VFR clearance for an uncontrolled airport,
and for the same reasons.

That's not quite how I understand it. Isn't a Special VFR clearance
only available in controlled airspace?

IFR approach/departure clearances are available in Class G airspace as
well, right

Class is uncontrolled, no clearances are available. You can
depart an airport that is in Class G and begin an IFR when
you enter controlled airspace...a clearance will read
something like "...enter controlled airspace heading 240
degrees..."
In the "old days" it was easy to describe, special VFR was
only available in what was called a control zone, which was
the controlled airspace around an airport from the ground up
to 14,500. Now, SVFR is, in theory, available in any
airspace except Class A and such Class B as are listed in
Appendix D, but it is still tied to an airport based lateral
boundary. You can't fly a cross-country under SVFR unless
the two airports are "touching" their designated airspace.

The purpose of SVFR is to get VFR only aircraft (pilots) in
and out of airports when the local weather is good enough
for basic VFR once you get to the Class G or from the Class
G to the airport.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
| On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:11:37 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
| wrote in
| ::
|
|
| So, just as one can obtain an IFR approach clearance for
an uncontrolled
| airport, one can obtain a Special VFR clearance for an
uncontrolled airport,
| and for the same reasons.
|
| That's not quite how I understand it. Isn't a Special VFR
clearance
| only available in controlled airspace?
|
| IFR approach/departure clearances are available in Class G
airspace as
| well, right