Helicopter Question

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:0kmkf.11519$QW2.182@dukeread08...
VFR for a helicopter is enough visibility to stop before you
hit something.

The same is true for an airplane. The difference being that a) helicopters
are able to fly at arbitrarily low airspeeds, and b) helicopters can
actually be brought to a stop mid-air.

No one is saying that helicopters can fly in any weather, least of all me.
But that's not what this thread is about. The question is simply whether
helicopters can fly in lower visibility than airplanes, and clearly the
answer is yes.

In airplane it is turn radius+reaction time, with a
helicopter it is stopping distance+reaction time. Since the
slowest airplanes, J3 or Helio Courier can fly at less than
50 mph and a helicopter height/velocity envelope may limit
minimum flight speed for a low-altitude helicopter. In very
low visibility, there may be little contrast so seeing will
be difficult. Also, unless the helicopter is flown at low
altitude, below 500 feet, the flight will be very much by
instruments, making an observer useful. Just like driving
in fog, it isn't hard to do with a 1/4-1/2 mile vis., but
when less than 100 yards it gets hard to follow the tail
lights in front or avoid the headlights coming at you.

Airplanes, VFR minimum is 1 statute mile, helicopter is see
and avoid. Since I have used 7 of my 9 lives, my minimums
are higher.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Peter Duniho" wrote in
message ...
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:0kmkf.11519$QW2.182@dukeread08...
| VFR for a helicopter is enough visibility to stop before
you
| hit something.
|
| The same is true for an airplane. The difference being
that a) helicopters
| are able to fly at arbitrarily low airspeeds, and b)
helicopters can
| actually be brought to a stop mid-air.
|
| No one is saying that helicopters can fly in any weather,
least of all me.
| But that's not what this thread is about. The question is
simply whether
| helicopters can fly in lower visibility than airplanes,
and clearly the
| answer is yes.
|
|

On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 07:03:18 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
wrote in
KKgkf.11482$QW2.64@dukeread08::

[If] Class is uncontrolled, no clearances are available.

[...]

In the "old days" it was easy to describe, special VFR was
only available in what was called a control zone, which was
the controlled airspace around an airport from the ground up
to 14,500.

Right. The last time I used SVFR was in the early '70s. It's been
amended a at least three times since then, but I haven't been
successful in locating the amendments on-line.

Now, SVFR is, in theory, available in any
airspace except Class A and such Class B as are listed in
Appendix D, but it is still tied to an airport based lateral
boundary. You can't fly a cross-country under SVFR unless
the two airports are "touching" their designated airspace.

Never could. That was what I had erroneously inferred from Mr.
Duniho's:

Since a pilot can get a Special VFR clearance pretty much anywhere
that there *isn't* Class G airspace near the surface (generally
below 700 or 1200 feet, depending), ...

But implicit in his statement is the fact that the only place (I am
aware) controlled airspace touches the ground is within the surface
area of an airport.


The purpose of SVFR is to get VFR only aircraft (pilots) in
and out of airports when the local weather is good enough
for basic VFR once you get to the Class G or from the Class
G to the airport.

Yes. Like an occasion where there is a low broken layer in the
vicinity of the airport. The minima are relaxed to permit penetration
of the cloud layer while ATC provides separation from other SVFR and
IFR flights.

SVFR does not allow penetration of the clouds, it just
reduces cloud clearances and visibility required to the same
as Class G below 1200 feet within the Class E near the
airport. It is not a clearance to climb through a layer,
that requires an IFR ticket, airplane and currency.
It is so the pilot arriving at an airport that is below
Basic VFR for Class E, can enter and land without having to
declare an emergency. It also allows the pilot to depart
from an airport that is below Basic VFR when it is possible
to reach VFR condition within a few miles of the airport.

BTW my typo, forgot to type the G in the first sentence,
you corrected with the [if] making it a question.

The FAA has all the regs on-line and also has previous
versions, http://www.faa.gov/
direct to regs
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...TOKEN=88430961


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
| On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 07:03:18 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
| wrote in
| KKgkf.11482$QW2.64@dukeread08::
|
| [If] Class is uncontrolled, no clearances are available.
|
| [...]
|
| In the "old days" it was easy to describe, special VFR
was
| only available in what was called a control zone, which
was
| the controlled airspace around an airport from the ground
up
| to 14,500.
|
| Right. The last time I used SVFR was in the early '70s.
It's been
| amended a at least three times since then, but I haven't
been
| successful in locating the amendments on-line.
|
| Now, SVFR is, in theory, available in any
| airspace except Class A and such Class B as are listed in
| Appendix D, but it is still tied to an airport based
lateral
| boundary. You can't fly a cross-country under SVFR
unless
| the two airports are "touching" their designated
airspace.
|
| Never could. That was what I had erroneously inferred
from Mr.
| Duniho's:
|
| Since a pilot can get a Special VFR clearance pretty
much anywhere
| that there *isn't* Class G airspace near the surface
(generally
| below 700 or 1200 feet, depending), ...
|
| But implicit in his statement is the fact that the only
place (I am
| aware) controlled airspace touches the ground is within
the surface
| area of an airport.
|
|
| The purpose of SVFR is to get VFR only aircraft (pilots)
in
| and out of airports when the local weather is good enough
| for basic VFR once you get to the Class G or from the
Class
| G to the airport.
|
| Yes. Like an occasion where there is a low broken layer
in the
| vicinity of the airport. The minima are relaxed to permit
penetration
| of the cloud layer while ATC provides separation from
other SVFR and
| IFR flights.

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:GPmkf.11520$QW2.11111@dukeread08...
Airplanes, VFR minimum is 1 statute mile, helicopter is see
and avoid.

It's nice to see you finally agreeing with what I was writing all along.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
| On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 07:03:18 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
| wrote in
| KKgkf.11482$QW2.64@dukeread08::
|
| [If] Class is uncontrolled, no clearances are available.
|
| [...]
|
| In the "old days" it was easy to describe, special VFR
was
| only available in what was called a control zone, which
was
| the controlled airspace around an airport from the ground
up
| to 14,500.
|
| Right. The last time I used SVFR was in the early '70s.
It's been
| amended a at least three times since then, but I haven't
been
| successful in locating the amendments on-line.
|
| Now, SVFR is, in theory, available in any
| airspace except Class A and such Class B as are listed in
| Appendix D, but it is still tied to an airport based
lateral
| boundary. You can't fly a cross-country under SVFR
unless
| the two airports are "touching" their designated
airspace.
|
| Never could. That was what I had erroneously inferred
from Mr.
| Duniho's:
|
| Since a pilot can get a Special VFR clearance pretty
much anywhere
| that there *isn't* Class G airspace near the surface
(generally
| below 700 or 1200 feet, depending), ...
|
| But implicit in his statement is the fact that the only
place (I am
| aware) controlled airspace touches the ground is within
the surface
| area of an airport.
|
|
| The purpose of SVFR is to get VFR only aircraft (pilots)
in
| and out of airports when the local weather is good enough
| for basic VFR once you get to the Class G or from the
Class
| G to the airport.
|
| Yes. Like an occasion where there is a low broken layer
in the
| vicinity of the airport. The minima are relaxed to permit
penetration
| of the cloud layer while ATC provides separation from
other SVFR and
| IFR flights.



On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:24:30 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
wrote in
gSpkf.11534$QW2.9670@dukeread08::


SVFR does not allow penetration of the clouds, it just
reduces cloud clearances and visibility required to the same
as Class G below 1200 feet within the Class E near the
airport. It is not a clearance to climb through a layer,
that requires an IFR ticket, airplane and currency.

That's why I used a 'broken layer' in my example instead of a solid
layer.

It is so the pilot arriving at an airport that is below
Basic VFR for Class E, can enter and land without having to
declare an emergency. It also allows the pilot to depart
from an airport that is below Basic VFR when it is possible
to reach VFR condition within a few miles of the airport.

BTW my typo, forgot to type the G in the first sentence,
you corrected with the [if] making it a question.

Class G being uncontrolled makes it parse the same either way.

The FAA has all the regs on-line and also has previous
versions, http://www.faa.gov/
direct to regs
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...TOKEN=88430961

Yes. Unfortunately, Part 91 isn't included under Historical FAR.

I've never said anything else, it must be someone else who
you confused with my comments.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Peter Duniho" wrote in
message ...
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:GPmkf.11520$QW2.11111@dukeread08...
| Airplanes, VFR minimum is 1 statute mile, helicopter is
see
| and avoid.
|
| It's nice to see you finally agreeing with what I was
writing all along.
|
|

Broken layer is effectively solid ceiling.

Thanks for the note about Part 91, I hadn't looked for old
regs.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
|
| "Larry Dighera" wrote in message
| .. .
| | On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 07:03:18 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
| | wrote in
| | KKgkf.11482$QW2.64@dukeread08::
| |
| | [If] Class is uncontrolled, no clearances are
available.
| |
| | [...]
| |
| | In the "old days" it was easy to describe, special VFR
| was
| | only available in what was called a control zone,
which
| was
| | the controlled airspace around an airport from the
ground
| up
| | to 14,500.
| |
| | Right. The last time I used SVFR was in the early
'70s.
| It's been
| | amended a at least three times since then, but I
haven't
| been
| | successful in locating the amendments on-line.
| |
| | Now, SVFR is, in theory, available in any
| | airspace except Class A and such Class B as are listed
in
| | Appendix D, but it is still tied to an airport based
| lateral
| | boundary. You can't fly a cross-country under SVFR
| unless
| | the two airports are "touching" their designated
| airspace.
| |
| | Never could. That was what I had erroneously inferred
| from Mr.
| | Duniho's:
| |
| | Since a pilot can get a Special VFR clearance pretty
| much anywhere
| | that there *isn't* Class G airspace near the surface
| (generally
| | below 700 or 1200 feet, depending), ...
| |
| | But implicit in his statement is the fact that the only
| place (I am
| | aware) controlled airspace touches the ground is within
| the surface
| | area of an airport.
| |
| |
| | The purpose of SVFR is to get VFR only aircraft
(pilots)
| in
| | and out of airports when the local weather is good
enough
| | for basic VFR once you get to the Class G or from the
| Class
| | G to the airport.
| |
| | Yes. Like an occasion where there is a low broken
layer
| in the
| | vicinity of the airport. The minima are relaxed to
permit
| penetration
| | of the cloud layer while ATC provides separation from
| other SVFR and
| | IFR flights.
|
|
|
| On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:24:30 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
| wrote in
| gSpkf.11534$QW2.9670@dukeread08::
|
|
| SVFR does not allow penetration of the clouds, it just
| reduces cloud clearances and visibility required to the
same
| as Class G below 1200 feet within the Class E near the
| airport. It is not a clearance to climb through a layer,
| that requires an IFR ticket, airplane and currency.
|
| That's why I used a 'broken layer' in my example instead
of a solid
| layer.
|
| It is so the pilot arriving at an airport that is below
| Basic VFR for Class E, can enter and land without having
to
| declare an emergency. It also allows the pilot to depart
| from an airport that is below Basic VFR when it is
possible
| to reach VFR condition within a few miles of the airport.
|
| BTW my typo, forgot to type the G in the first sentence,
| you corrected with the [if] making it a question.
|
| Class G being uncontrolled makes it parse the same either
way.
|
| The FAA has all the regs on-line and also has previous
| versions, http://www.faa.gov/
| direct to regs
|
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...TOKEN=88430961
|
| Yes. Unfortunately, Part 91 isn't included under
Historical FAR.

On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 20:33:09 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
wrote in
DAskf.11546$QW2.9995@dukeread08::

Broken layer is effectively solid ceiling.

While it is true that:

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap7/aim0701.html
a. Ceiling, by definition in the CFRs and as used in aviation
weather reports and forecasts, is the height above ground (or
water) level of the lowest layer of clouds or obscuring phenomenon
that is reported as "broken," "overcast," or "obscuration,"

Given the fact that:

Broken is the term used to describe a layer of clouds that
is 5/8s to 7/8s of clouds.

Given the usual lack of uniformity in hole size, I would characterize
a thin broken cloud layer as often providing holes adequate to meet
the SVFR 'clear of clouds' requirement when using them traverse the
layer.

It was so slick on the ramp that I put down Kitty Litter near the
airstep door so my pax didn't slip and fall. Was too slick to hold
position while I tried to exercise the props before take-off. Nasty
ice.....

We get that fairly often in the Midwest. Today while doing our run-up, we
just started sliding along the taxiway toward the runway, with the brakes
locked on.

You get used to it.

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"