Safety of winch launch vrs. aero tow?

Bill Daniels writes:

If you don't like the way a winch launch is going, release and land. You
can do that with a winch launch because you should always be in a position
to land back on the runway - I can't say that is always true with air tow.

This brings up a point I left out of my original post. The SITE must be
suitable for winch launching. If the site has a short runway, or obstructions,
then the option to release and land straight ahead may be limited. Of course
this applies to aerotow as well.

Winch launch accelerates the glider far faster than air tow so dropping a
wing due to insufficient aileron control is unlikely. (Of course, you can
still drop a wing due to incompetence with unhappy results.)

If the winch operator does not apply adequate power for rotation and climb
early in the launch, the window of opportunity to abort safely closes quickly
and leaves unsuitable options.

In both cases, the training of the pilots and launch crews have a lot to due
with overall safety. There is ample opportunity for either to come to a bad
end. With equally good training, I think winch launch is safer.

I wholeheartedly agree that training, and practice, are of great importance. I
had a winch launch accident early this year in which training played a large
part. Also reaction time, and the limited suitability of the site for winch
launching.
I will give a brief description of the accident:
I did not brief the winch driver on my launch requirements (mistake 1), my
glider had the highest wingloading of any there that day.
The initial acceleration from a stop was weak enough in comparison to all my
previous training on this winch to make the hair on the back of my neck stand
up. I had enough room to wait for more power (mistake 2) but was too low and
slow to wag wings. I briefly pulled back on the stick to see if there was any
tension on the cable, maybe the winch had redlined in a lower gear (the winch
in question has known issues, mistake 3). I felt the tension completely go
away, pulled the release and pushed the nose over. I was not aggressive with
the push over (mistake 4), but altitude was only 50-75 feet and the glider was
just above stall, so not enough room to gain speed, no room to land straight
ahead, and insufficient altitude to complete a turn to the right for a landing
on the abort runway.
I dragged the right wing and ground looped, breaking the tail boom of my
glider, and narrowly missed a Toyota truck that was parked in an unsafe area.
During debrief, I found out that the winch driver saw the retrieve chute
balloon immediately and thought I released so chopped the winch power. Chute
blossoming was common that day on previous launches due to improper chute
rigging (mistake 5) and this was probably exaggerated by the lack of full power
during the initial part of the launch. The site has about 1000 feet of usable
straight ahead runway, but it is downhill from glider to winch, and a portion
is steep enough so as to be impossible to walk uphill if the dirt is wet. The
abort runway is at a right angle to the launch runway, undulates in elevation
30-40 feet, and has a narrow spot about 60 feet wide bordered by trees and
bushes.
The dimensions of the site are such that there is a point in the launch when
you may be too high to land straight ahead, too low to continue into the ridge
lift, and too low to make the landable portion of the abort runway. The
situation is worse for higher wingloading gliders (I fly an ASW20) than are
typically flown at this site. Some of you may have guessed the site by now, it
is Torrey Pines, California. Having had this experience, I would fly there
again, but only after addressing the training and briefing issues mentioned.
The configuration of this site requires extra special attention to launch
procedures, but the satisfaction of flying at such a unique and historic
location is well worth it.


-
Mark Navarre
ASW-20 OD
California, USA
-

Here's an interesting point of reference:

Proper pilot life-saving reaction to winch line breaks, op inattention,
winch engine failure, or op incapacitation is routinely taught in ground
launch training.

How many airtow instructors pull the release on their student at 200 ft
over the outbound fence? Just once? Several times?

BJ

Gary Boggs wrote:

Someone must have already compared the safety of these tow launch methods.
What do the statistics show is the safer method of launch? Aero tow seems
to involve more inherent dangers to me. For one thing, there is just more
time for things to go wrong. What could be more dangerous than to tie tow
airplanes together and try to fly?

Gary Boggs

"Bob Johnson" wrote in message
...
Here's an interesting point of reference:

Proper pilot life-saving reaction to winch line breaks, op inattention,
winch engine failure, or op incapacitation is routinely taught in ground
launch training.

How many airtow instructors pull the release on their student at 200 ft
over the outbound fence? Just once? Several times?

BJ

Gary Boggs wrote:

Someone must have already compared the safety of these tow launch
methods.
What do the statistics show is the safer method of launch? Aero tow
seems
to involve more inherent dangers to me. For one thing, there is just
more
time for things to go wrong. What could be more dangerous than to tie
tow
airplanes together and try to fly?

Gary Boggs

Bob;
Right, I thik this is really imprtant.
On tow, at 200 ft over the far-boundary you need the confidence to
know the right thing to do and do it straight away while retaing air-speed.
On tows we take of saying to oursevles 'land-ahead if it breaks now' from 0
to 150 feet
but there is a sweaty bit between150 and 300 ft where the choices are less
attractive.
In a winch lanuch (probably becauseof more experience) I am never in this
sweaty "hope it don't break at just this second" position.


--

Jonathan

As many times as it takes for the student to react properly. In our club,
it happens often, especially if the student fails to call 200ft.
Fred

How many airtow instructors pull the release on their student at 200 ft
over the outbound fence? Just once? Several times?

Gary,
I suspect you are considering winch launching for your club and I would think
the biggest problem would be in getting club members, "Up to Speed" on winch
operations.

In way of illustrating my point, allow me to tell a little story about a local
soaring operation that is no longer in business. This outfit advertised, get
your "Aero-Tow Only" restriction, removed from your glider licence. Come to XXX
Soaring and we will check you out in about an hour, or so. This outfit had a
2-33 with only a nose tow hook (mistake no. 1) They didn't use radios (mistake
no. 2) The flight examiner weighed a good 300 lb. + your average student at 200
lb. = 500 lb's in the 2-33 (mistake no. 3)

I was going to take the course, but had to wait for the student in front of me
to get his check-out. The signal for "Start the launch" was, level the wings
and flash the lights in the car located near the right wing tip. It went
something like this:

1. Level the wings & flash the lights------------Glider rolled about 10 feet
and stopped. winch operator stalled the winch.

2. Level the wings & flash the lights---------- Cable went, but glider didn't
move. In the last attempt, wheel had rolled over cable and caused a reverse
release.

3.Level the wings & flash the lights---------------Glider went about 100 feet
and stopped. Cable had "Kinked" in previous 2 attempts and then broke at a
kink.

-------------30 minute delay while Nico-Press & sleves are found and cable is
spliced. With 3 attempts and no success, student is having second thoughts and
opens canopy and starts to climb out. Instructor tells him, everything will be
fine, this time, Get back in here.

4. Level the wings & flash the lights------------ Glider takes off, to the wild
applause of all those assembled. Glider only gets 400 feet due to nose tow hook
location. Glider makes a 90 right and a 180 left, lands and rolls right up to
the starting point.

Attempts 5, 6 & 7 come off without a hitch and the Flight Examiner is called
out (300 lbs)

Level the wings & flash the lights-------------- Glider takes off, but only
gets 300 feet, makes a modified 90/180 and plunks it down hard, way down the
runway.

I took this opportunity to silently disappear and my licence still reads,
Aero-Tow Only.
JJ Sinclair

On 26 Oct 2003 15:04:10 GMT, (JJ Sinclair) wrote:


I took this opportunity to silently disappear and my licence still reads,
Aero-Tow Only.

I have to admit it: I'm impressed.
They really made every mistake that is possible. Thiw "insch launch"
attempts had as much in common with winch launching as a 2-33 has in
common with a Boeing 747.


Bye
Andreas

On 26 Oct 2003 15:04:10 GMT, (JJ Sinclair) wrote:
[snip]

I took this opportunity to silently disappear and my licence still reads,
Aero-Tow Only.

I have a co-worker who's still around because he made the same shrewd
decision in connection with a bungee-jumping operation...

rj

"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message
...
Gary,
I suspect you are considering winch launching for your club and I would
think
the biggest problem would be in getting club members, "Up to Speed" on
winch
operations.

In way of illustrating my point, allow me to tell a little story about a
local
soaring operation that is no longer in business. This outfit advertised,
get
your "Aero-Tow Only" restriction, removed from your glider licence. Come
to XXX
Soaring and we will check you out in about an hour, or so. This outfit had
a
2-33 with only a nose tow hook (mistake no. 1) They didn't use radios
(mistake
no. 2) The flight examiner weighed a good 300 lb. + your average student
at 200
lb. = 500 lb's in the 2-33 (mistake no. 3)

I was going to take the course, but had to wait for the student in front
of me
to get his check-out. The signal for "Start the launch" was, level the
wings
and flash the lights in the car located near the right wing tip. It went
something like this:

1. Level the wings & flash the lights------------Glider rolled about 10
feet
and stopped. winch operator stalled the winch.

2. Level the wings & flash the lights---------- Cable went, but glider
didn't
move. In the last attempt, wheel had rolled over cable and caused a
reverse
release.

3.Level the wings & flash the lights---------------Glider went about 100
feet
and stopped. Cable had "Kinked" in previous 2 attempts and then broke at a
kink.

-------------30 minute delay while Nico-Press & sleves are found and cable
is
spliced. With 3 attempts and no success, student is having second thoughts
and
opens canopy and starts to climb out. Instructor tells him, everything
will be
fine, this time, Get back in here.

4. Level the wings & flash the lights------------ Glider takes off, to the
wild
applause of all those assembled. Glider only gets 400 feet due to nose tow
hook
location. Glider makes a 90 right and a 180 left, lands and rolls right up
to
the starting point.

Attempts 5, 6 & 7 come off without a hitch and the Flight Examiner is
called
out (300 lbs)

Level the wings & flash the lights-------------- Glider takes off, but
only
gets 300 feet, makes a modified 90/180 and plunks it down hard, way down
the
runway.

I took this opportunity to silently disappear and my licence still reads,
Aero-Tow Only.
JJ Sinclair

What JJ experienced is, unfortunately, an all too common experience in the
USA.

A bunch of guys, (it's usually guys) get together and decide to winch launch
gliders. ("How hard can it be?" "We can teach ourselves...") They start
with poor equipment, a bad site, no experience or training and proceed to
scare themselves badly...or worse.

They then decide that the problem is winch launch (It doesn't work, low
releases, lots of hassles, etc..) and then go back to air tow.

I've flown tugs and driven winches - I'll take winches for fun. I've flown
lots of air tow and been scared on plenty of occasions. I've flown lots of
winch launches and rarely had one go wrong. If anybody wants a winch
experienced CFI-G for a week of winch training, email me. I might be
available.

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch
experience jumping in here?

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of winch
experience jumping in here?

I can't speak for others, but I read this thread, shaked my head and
simply didn't feel like commenting. Seldom I have seen a discussion
which showed so clearly plain ignorance.

In a word: If done correctly, winch launching is safe, cheap and fun. It
is certainly much (much!) cheaper than aero-tow. It is certainly much
more fun. And it's easier, too.

The only dangerous moment for the pilot is at the very beginning of the
pull. It is very very very important not to pull too early or too
briskly. Stalling the glider at this altitude is lethal. Once
established in the climb, make sure you have always enough speed to pull
over if the rope breaks. Everything else is very easy and very safe.
There *are* rope breaks, but they are very much a non-event. Either you
have enough room to land straight, or you have enough altitude to do a
180 or a short circuit.

Winch launching has much more safety issues for the ground crew and
spectators than for the pilot. Be sure to have an experienced person
show you safe procedures.

Of course, an experienced winch driver helps a lot, too. At our club, a
new winch driver must do 50 launches under supervision befor he's
allowed to winch alone. We never had a winch accident in 40 years.

Stefan

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:

BTW, How about some of our British and European friends with lots of
winch
experience jumping in here?

I can't speak for others, but I read this thread, shaked my head and
simply didn't feel like commenting. Seldom I have seen a discussion
which showed so clearly plain ignorance.

In a word: If done correctly, winch launching is safe, cheap and fun. It
is certainly much (much!) cheaper than aero-tow. It is certainly much
more fun. And it's easier, too.

The only dangerous moment for the pilot is at the very beginning of the
pull. It is very very very important not to pull too early or too
briskly. Stalling the glider at this altitude is lethal. Once
established in the climb, make sure you have always enough speed to pull
over if the rope breaks. Everything else is very easy and very safe.
There *are* rope breaks, but they are very much a non-event. Either you
have enough room to land straight, or you have enough altitude to do a
180 or a short circuit.

Winch launching has much more safety issues for the ground crew and
spectators than for the pilot. Be sure to have an experienced person
show you safe procedures.

Of course, an experienced winch driver helps a lot, too. At our club, a
new winch driver must do 50 launches under supervision befor he's
allowed to winch alone. We never had a winch accident in 40 years.

Stefan

Thanks, Stefan, we need to hear more of this sort of thing.

Bill Daniels