Newbie seeking advice

1: A parachute is not very expensive (relative to the other things you
may buy as you get into soaring)

2: Most ships have seats designed to take a parachute (I assume this
is a result of the fact that chutes are mandatory in contests) so you
usually either need to wear a chute or use some cushions. I have found
that in most gliders a good chute is more comfortable than cushions.

3: These points being taken into account, why would you not wear a
chute? Maybe you will never have the opportunity to use it (I
certainly hope I never do!). Maybe you wouldn't be able to get out if
you nedded to. However maybe you WILL need to bail out and maybe you
WILL be successful in doing so. No matter what happens wearing a chute
gives you another option and has no real drawbacks.

4: Just think how stupid you would feel if you DID need a chute and
didin't have one.

5: If you and your ship end up down in the wilderness and have to wait
a day or longer to get rescued all that nylon could be a useful thing
to have on hand.

If you can try out a number of different types of chutes in your
glider to find out which suits you and your ship best, do it. My club
has nearly a dozen chutes and after trying them out I bought a
National backpack because it fits perfectly into the seat recess of my
ASW15b. It's as comfortable as lying in bed! On the other hand, when
flying my club's Grobs, I used a bigger Security chute because they
raise me up a bit so I can see out better. In the backseat of our L13
and L23 I use these huge ex-military chutes we have because they raise
me up and push me forward so my head isn't as buried in the wing root
as it would be with a backpack chute.

"." wrote in message . com...
I went for a ride in a glider many years ago and was immediately taken with
the whole experience. I have always wanted to fly and now have the time to
do it as I am finished with my skydiving career. Before I sell my rigs I
wanted to ask a question. Do any of you wear pilot rigs? Before I trade
some gear for a pilot rig....what is the reality of actually getting out of
a glider if you have a structural failure or something catastrophic? I am a
realist and can accept the fact there are inherent risks up there believe
me, but I don't want to buy a rig if it's a mute point. Do any of you wear
rigs? Thanks for the advice.

Welcome to Soaring!

No matter what you intend to fly in, get yourself a chute! These are
typically round, 26' dia. canopies, built for extremely rapid, manual
deployment. There are also rectangular rescue chutes available, but
according to the master rigger who repacks my chute, the average guy
could get into trouble with them since they require skill and
knowledge to handle them. Get something that is called 'Chair-chute'
or 'Thin-Pack'. Keep in mind that - as Bill put it - we intend to
bring the glider back and therefore we typically lie or sit on the
chute for a couple of hours. If you are qualified to repack your own
rig, change your mind-set, too: think "Comfort"! There is nothing more
annoying than getting the chute back repacked only to discover that
there is a lump pushing into your back.
Check out brand names like National, Softie or Strong, they have what
you are looking for.

Uli Neumann
Libelle 'GM'

seems to me that a chute large enough to carry the pilot and glider would be
the best bet.
forget the bailout. if for whatever reason you fly yourself into a situation
or midair and crash is inevitable, deploy, save yourself as well as the
glider.



"." wrote in message
om...
I went for a ride in a glider many years ago and was immediately taken
with
the whole experience. I have always wanted to fly and now have the time
to
do it as I am finished with my skydiving career. Before I sell my rigs I
wanted to ask a question. Do any of you wear pilot rigs? Before I trade
some gear for a pilot rig....what is the reality of actually getting out
of
a glider if you have a structural failure or something catastrophic? I am
a
realist and can accept the fact there are inherent risks up there believe
me, but I don't want to buy a rig if it's a mute point. Do any of you
wear
rigs? Thanks for the advice.

"." wrote in message
om...
I went for a ride in a glider many years ago and was immediately taken
with
the whole experience. I have always wanted to fly and now have the time
to
do it as I am finished with my skydiving career. Before I sell my rigs I
wanted to ask a question. Do any of you wear pilot rigs? Before I trade
some gear for a pilot rig....what is the reality of actually getting out
of
a glider if you have a structural failure or something catastrophic? I am
a
realist and can accept the fact there are inherent risks up there believe
me, but I don't want to buy a rig if it's a mute point. Do any of you
wear
rigs? Thanks for the advice.

Forget all the "I think this", "I think that" very common to
rec.aviation.soaring.
There are all kinds of PHDs in every science here, but unfortunately very
little flying.
Few experienced pilots write here, that's why so many people say things like
"sit on the parachute for a couple of hours".
Competition and cross-country flights in gliders very rarely are less than 6
hours in duration.
Unfortunately, 70% of all glider pilots don't really know what that is,
hence the "couple hour fliers" in rec.aviation.soaring.
Same thing applies for those who "think" there are more bail-outs because of
collision than structural failure...
OF COURSE the rare bail-outs are motivated by collision.
Gliders don't fall appart in flight by themselves like ultralights and other
crazy flying machines.
Gliders are, after all, certified aircraft.

So here is the gist :
Glider pilots almos all over the world are required to wear parachutes
because of the risk of collision with other gliders while thermalling.
That is the only reason we are "required" to wear parachutes.
In the USA parachutes are not "required" except in competition and aerobatic
flight, so, the USA is the exception.

Sure a parachute might also save you in case of structural failure, but the
vast majority of bail-outs were motivated by mid-air collisions.
I only know of structural failures leading to bail-outs in factory
test-flights and in older wooden gliders who had been previously repaired
using unknown techniques, and end-up losing their tails, leading to
bail-outs.

Glider structural failures are extremely rare in real life outside of these
cases.

Structural failures affect airplanes in flight much more than gliders, the
most common reason is to end up inside a cloud without previous IFR
training, lose control and break up in flight.
For airplanes, the other cause for structural failure is aerobatic flight
coupled with metal fatigue.

None of these two factors are very likely in the world of Soaring, hence,
for those scared flyers out there :
Gliders don't break-up in flight unless they hit something.

I beg to differ with this last post. In a contest flight south of
Littlefield, TX in 1988, the tail section of my Open Cirrus broke just in
front of the horizontal stabilizer. At the nose of the glider went down
with no response from the stick, I began to unbuckle. As the glider went
inverted, I rolled out and successfully reached the ground with the help of
my big round parachute. I had encountered some severe turbulence, that in
later discussions with Dick Johnson, he decided must have been some type of
horizontal, rotor type cloud. I was encountering severe updrafts then
severe downdrafts. The whole glider was going up then down, not just the
nose. I was basically just holding on waiting for it to stop. Went through
about 5-6 cycles of up then down, then it got real quiet and the nose
started down and that was when I realized that the control stick did
nothing, so I got out. The boom was broken, but the tail was attached by
cables and a push rod. I watched it land in the field next to me, a smooth,
flat approach. The glider was inverted, but the tail section was upright.
The only thing that was not bent during the landing was the T.E. probe that
was on the front edge of the vertical stabilizer. Gliders can have
structural failures.

It is not a good idea to say that 'something' will never happen.

Still flying and loving it.

Fred Blair
Greater Houston Soaring Association

Original Post:
Forget all the "I think this", "I think that" very common to
rec.aviation.soaring.

Gliders don't fall appart in flight by themselves like ultralights and
other
crazy flying machines.
Gliders are, after all, certified aircraft.

Sure a parachute might also save you in case of structural failure, but
the
vast majority of bail-outs were motivated by mid-air collisions.
I only know of structural failures leading to bail-outs in factory
test-flights and in older wooden gliders who had been previously repaired
using unknown techniques, and end-up losing their tails, leading to
bail-outs.

Glider structural failures are extremely rare in real life outside of
these
cases.

Gliders don't break-up in flight unless they hit something.

Like I said, accidents like this are extremely rare.
If we look at the history of your old Open Cirrus, it probably had previous
damage history.
It wouldn't be a surprise if it had previously severed the tailcone in a
groundloop during an outlanding.
I know a few cases similar to yours, and all could be traced back to a
previous damage that was hidden and not well repaired.

Still, a rare event, and like I said, it is NOT the reason we wear a
parachute.
Airplanes break up in flight more often than gliders and power
pilots/passengers are not required to wear a parachute.

If we respect our flight envelopes, gliders don't break up in flight.
They are certified aircraft and are designed to withstand severe forces, as
long as we respect their limits.

"f.blair" wrote in message
news:27Kyc.16387$2i5.5757@attbi_s52...
I beg to differ with this last post. In a contest flight south of
Littlefield, TX in 1988, the tail section of my Open Cirrus broke just in
front of the horizontal stabilizer. At the nose of the glider went down
with no response from the stick, I began to unbuckle. As the glider went
inverted, I rolled out and successfully reached the ground with the help
of
my big round parachute. I had encountered some severe turbulence, that in
later discussions with Dick Johnson, he decided must have been some type
of
horizontal, rotor type cloud. I was encountering severe updrafts then
severe downdrafts. The whole glider was going up then down, not just the
nose. I was basically just holding on waiting for it to stop. Went
through
about 5-6 cycles of up then down, then it got real quiet and the nose
started down and that was when I realized that the control stick did
nothing, so I got out. The boom was broken, but the tail was attached by
cables and a push rod. I watched it land in the field next to me, a
smooth,
flat approach. The glider was inverted, but the tail section was upright.
The only thing that was not bent during the landing was the T.E. probe
that
was on the front edge of the vertical stabilizer. Gliders can have
structural failures.

It is not a good idea to say that 'something' will never happen.

Still flying and loving it.

Fred Blair
Greater Houston Soaring Association

Original Post:
Forget all the "I think this", "I think that" very common to
rec.aviation.soaring.

Gliders don't fall appart in flight by themselves like ultralights and
other
crazy flying machines.
Gliders are, after all, certified aircraft.

Sure a parachute might also save you in case of structural failure, but
the
vast majority of bail-outs were motivated by mid-air collisions.
I only know of structural failures leading to bail-outs in factory
test-flights and in older wooden gliders who had been previously
repaired
using unknown techniques, and end-up losing their tails, leading to
bail-outs.

Glider structural failures are extremely rare in real life outside of
these
cases.

Gliders don't break-up in flight unless they hit something.

When I read Fred's report of tail separation, my first thought was
pre-existing damage from a tail dolly that clamped the tail boom too
tightly. The hard landing/poor repair scenario works too.

Bill Daniels

"Gldcomp" wrote in message
. com...
Like I said, accidents like this are extremely rare.
If we look at the history of your old Open Cirrus, it probably had
previous
damage history.
It wouldn't be a surprise if it had previously severed the tailcone in a
groundloop during an outlanding.
I know a few cases similar to yours, and all could be traced back to a
previous damage that was hidden and not well repaired.

Still, a rare event, and like I said, it is NOT the reason we wear a
parachute.
Airplanes break up in flight more often than gliders and power
pilots/passengers are not required to wear a parachute.

If we respect our flight envelopes, gliders don't break up in flight.
They are certified aircraft and are designed to withstand severe forces,
as
long as we respect their limits.

"f.blair" wrote in message
news:27Kyc.16387$2i5.5757@attbi_s52...
I beg to differ with this last post. In a contest flight south of
Littlefield, TX in 1988, the tail section of my Open Cirrus broke just
in
front of the horizontal stabilizer. At the nose of the glider went down
with no response from the stick, I began to unbuckle. As the glider
went
inverted, I rolled out and successfully reached the ground with the help
of
my big round parachute. I had encountered some severe turbulence, that
in
later discussions with Dick Johnson, he decided must have been some type
of
horizontal, rotor type cloud. I was encountering severe updrafts then
severe downdrafts. The whole glider was going up then down, not just
the
nose. I was basically just holding on waiting for it to stop. Went
through
about 5-6 cycles of up then down, then it got real quiet and the nose
started down and that was when I realized that the control stick did
nothing, so I got out. The boom was broken, but the tail was attached
by
cables and a push rod. I watched it land in the field next to me, a
smooth,
flat approach. The glider was inverted, but the tail section was
upright.
The only thing that was not bent during the landing was the T.E. probe
that
was on the front edge of the vertical stabilizer. Gliders can have
structural failures.

It is not a good idea to say that 'something' will never happen.

Still flying and loving it.

Fred Blair
Greater Houston Soaring Association

Original Post:
Forget all the "I think this", "I think that" very common to
rec.aviation.soaring.

Gliders don't fall appart in flight by themselves like ultralights and
other
crazy flying machines.
Gliders are, after all, certified aircraft.

Sure a parachute might also save you in case of structural failure,
but
the
vast majority of bail-outs were motivated by mid-air collisions.
I only know of structural failures leading to bail-outs in factory
test-flights and in older wooden gliders who had been previously
repaired
using unknown techniques, and end-up losing their tails, leading to
bail-outs.

Glider structural failures are extremely rare in real life outside of
these
cases.

Gliders don't break-up in flight unless they hit something.

Q - Do gliders 'crash', break or collide?

A- Yes

Q - Could a parachute save the pilot in some of those incidents?

A - Yes

Conclusion - Wear a 'chute!

Q - But do I have to wear a chute legally?

A - Who gives a damn! It's just the *sensible* thing to do!

Ian




"." wrote in message
om...
I went for a ride in a glider many years ago and was immediately taken
with
the whole experience. I have always wanted to fly and now have the time
to
do it as I am finished with my skydiving career. Before I sell my rigs I
wanted to ask a question. Do any of you wear pilot rigs? Before I trade
some gear for a pilot rig....what is the reality of actually getting out
of
a glider if you have a structural failure or something catastrophic? I am
a
realist and can accept the fact there are inherent risks up there believe
me, but I don't want to buy a rig if it's a mute point. Do any of you
wear
rigs? Thanks for the advice.