Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

skym wrote:
Thanks for replies. I had meant to address the speed issue since I
knew the stall speed increased with bank. I also kept my speed higher
than normal in the turn because of that. I left it out of the
question, and shouldn't have. Assuming I keep the speed up, is the
centered ball a reliable guide?
Quit saying stall speed increases with bank. If you insist, add "in a
level turn"

On Mar 13, 5:21 pm, BillJ wrote:

Quit saying stall speed increases with bank. If you insist, add "in a
level turn"

But it will increase in descending or climbing turns, too.

Dan

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:53:33 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:40:09 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in news:343516c1-8fa1-
:

On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken

-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training pilot


Due to questions and a mail program that moved a few things: for
explanation to those who didn't follow, the statement below refers to
the statement that was made about high g, low level turns being safe.


And although we sometimes hear complaints about the GA safety record,
There are those rare statements that sometimes make me wonder why it's
as good as it is.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 07:49:35 -0400, Ron Natalie
wrote:

Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
...
My instrument flight test required level steep turns partial panel, which I
assume was 45 degrees or more.

How do you judge a 45 degree bank angle with just a TC as you would
have with partial panel (no AH)?

You don't.



A 45 degree turn in most planes is going to peg the needle in the turn
indicator.

And the last thing you want to be doing partial panel are manouvers
like that. Standard rate at the most.

Yup and half standard when you get any where near the airport. (Time
for a PARg)

It's certainly not in the PTS or any FAA-endorsed curriculum.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 13, 6:23 am, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:
Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:52:38 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---
Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....
This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training
pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final!
A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
Perfectly safe if not close to the ground and the pilot is
proficient
ant not just current.
a requirement for a pilot's license.
Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?
The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.
That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.
2Gg turns are fun nor are they hazardous when not done close to the
ground. When I took Bo specific training the instructor started
talking me into a steep turn. I asked if it was OK to just roll into
it and go. I He said "OK", so I just rolled left and pulled. Coming
up on the proper heading he said now lets do one the other direction
where by I rolled to the right and pulled. This brought a laughing
comment, "You really like to do these things don't you?" My puzzled
"sure", brought the explanation that most of the Bo pilots would only
grudgingly do 45 degrees let alone 60. You should have heard them
complain when told the instructors would be blocking the yokes so
they couldn't use the ailerons when doing stalls.:-))
I've found few of newer pilots and instructors like 2G at 60 degrees
or the stalling characteristics of the Deb so when I go out to
practice it's only the "old timers" who go along.
When I took the PTS it was 60 degrees and 2Gs. By not going to 60
degrees in steep turns the students miss out on the different banking
tendencies/characteristics. I often think it should be put back to
that. There have been moments where I've been glad they did things
that way back then. One such moment was when a ultra light flying
far later than allowed popped out of the dark directly in front of me
when I was no more than a couple hundred yards (if that) from the end
of the runway. Another was on the VOR approach to MtPleasant where
you fly directly over the runway at 500 feet to the VOR to go missed
on 27. When the instructor's voice went up an octave and he said and
I quote..."What that...Oh, ****! Pull UP, Pull UP! I went full
power, stood the Deb on end and did a push over to level off that
left things floating. He never would tell me how close we came but
from his actions I'd say probably no more than a few feet. BTW I did
all of that under the hood. I mentioned to the CFI that I figured
had it been really close he'd have taken over. He said he figured
that I knew the limits of the plane and would react quicker than he
could even if he could see. He was right though, The urgency (I
couldeven feel him tense sitting next to me) told me that this should
be a maximum effort and not just a climb. Made me glad I use 120 for
approaches instead of 80 or 90 too:-))
Neither of these were things covered in primary training or the PTS.
They took a lot of time and practice getting to know the limits of
the Deb.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
I agree. I had to do 60 degree banked turns for my Private as well.
Sheesh. I can't remember what I had to do . I do remember spins, some
hood time and an engine failure on takeoff. I also remember filing and
putting in a cruising altitude of say, 3500 and then being so afraid to
deviate from it I flew underneat an overcast at that alt with my fin in
the clouds..
Bertie
A lot has changed since those days. If I remember right, the requirement
was for a 60 degree banked turn in both directions entering one from the
other within an altitude parameter either way of 50 feet. Just racking
my memory here but that sounds close.....and this was for the PRIVATE!!
:-))
Dudley Henriques

An instrument that was stressed for me during
instruction was this,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_indicator

The 60 degree banked turn (IIRC), did require that
50' +/- altitude, keeping the ball centered, and
maintaining a constant KIAS with some +power.

When that 50' +/- requirement was spec'd by the
instructor I got fixated on the "rate of climb"
indicator.
Well he smirked and sent my concentration to the
attitude indicator and to learn to use that.
Other pilots have mentioned the attitude indicator
is the most important instrument.
What do you guys think?
Ken

Ken Tucker writes of Dudley Henriques in a prior thread;

"Dud, you've never been in an airplane, and you're
NOT an instructor. I'm a prof teacher and I can
sniff your bad **** off the net, you're a phony!"

Personally Ken, if I held this opinion about someone, they would be the
last person in the world I'd ask for an opinion on ANYTHING. :-)

I'm sure with your excellent qualifications as a pilot, you really don't
need any feedback from the likes of me.

Best to you

--
Dudley Henriques

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:23:02 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:52:38 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training
pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final!
A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
Perfectly safe if not close to the ground and the pilot is
proficient
ant not just current.

a requirement for a pilot's license.
Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.
2Gg turns are fun nor are they hazardous when not done close to the
ground. When I took Bo specific training the instructor started
talking me into a steep turn. I asked if it was OK to just roll into
it and go. I He said "OK", so I just rolled left and pulled. Coming
up on the proper heading he said now lets do one the other direction
where by I rolled to the right and pulled. This brought a laughing
comment, "You really like to do these things don't you?" My puzzled
"sure", brought the explanation that most of the Bo pilots would only
grudgingly do 45 degrees let alone 60. You should have heard them
complain when told the instructors would be blocking the yokes so
they couldn't use the ailerons when doing stalls.:-))

I've found few of newer pilots and instructors like 2G at 60 degrees
or the stalling characteristics of the Deb so when I go out to
practice it's only the "old timers" who go along.

When I took the PTS it was 60 degrees and 2Gs. By not going to 60
degrees in steep turns the students miss out on the different banking
tendencies/characteristics. I often think it should be put back to
that. There have been moments where I've been glad they did things
that way back then. One such moment was when a ultra light flying
far later than allowed popped out of the dark directly in front of me
when I was no more than a couple hundred yards (if that) from the end
of the runway. Another was on the VOR approach to MtPleasant where
you fly directly over the runway at 500 feet to the VOR to go missed
on 27. When the instructor's voice went up an octave and he said and
I quote..."What that...Oh, ****! Pull UP, Pull UP! I went full
power, stood the Deb on end and did a push over to level off that
left things floating. He never would tell me how close we came but
from his actions I'd say probably no more than a few feet. BTW I did
all of that under the hood. I mentioned to the CFI that I figured
had it been really close he'd have taken over. He said he figured
that I knew the limits of the plane and would react quicker than he
could even if he could see. He was right though, The urgency (I
couldeven feel him tense sitting next to me) told me that this should
be a maximum effort and not just a climb. Made me glad I use 120 for
approaches instead of 80 or 90 too:-))

Neither of these were things covered in primary training or the PTS.
They took a lot of time and practice getting to know the limits of
the Deb.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
I agree. I had to do 60 degree banked turns for my Private as well.


Sheesh. I can't remember what I had to do . I do remember spins, some
hood time and an engine failure on takeoff. I also remember filing and
putting in a cruising altitude of say, 3500 and then being so afraid to
deviate from it I flew underneat an overcast at that alt with my fin in
the clouds..


Bertie
A lot has changed since those days. If I remember right, the requirement
was for a 60 degree banked turn in both directions entering one from the
other within an altitude parameter either way of 50 feet. Just racking

That was permissible ,but they'd bitch if you were more than 20 feet
off.LOL Yah, they not only expected you to roll out on the proper
heading +/-10, but continue the roll right into the 360 in the other
direction...unless you wanted to make it a 720:-)) AND we did have
to do 720s at 60 degrees. ALL of this while maintaining PTS standards
for altitude, bank, and headings.

BTW if you did the roll out and into the other direction properly
you'd hit the wake every time you came around on the 720.

my memory here but that sounds close.....and this was for the PRIVATE!!
:-))
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger wrote:
On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:23:02 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:52:38 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training
pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final!
A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
Perfectly safe if not close to the ground and the pilot is
proficient
ant not just current.

a requirement for a pilot's license.
Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.
2Gg turns are fun nor are they hazardous when not done close to the
ground. When I took Bo specific training the instructor started
talking me into a steep turn. I asked if it was OK to just roll into
it and go. I He said "OK", so I just rolled left and pulled. Coming
up on the proper heading he said now lets do one the other direction
where by I rolled to the right and pulled. This brought a laughing
comment, "You really like to do these things don't you?" My puzzled
"sure", brought the explanation that most of the Bo pilots would only
grudgingly do 45 degrees let alone 60. You should have heard them
complain when told the instructors would be blocking the yokes so
they couldn't use the ailerons when doing stalls.:-))

I've found few of newer pilots and instructors like 2G at 60 degrees
or the stalling characteristics of the Deb so when I go out to
practice it's only the "old timers" who go along.

When I took the PTS it was 60 degrees and 2Gs. By not going to 60
degrees in steep turns the students miss out on the different banking
tendencies/characteristics. I often think it should be put back to
that. There have been moments where I've been glad they did things
that way back then. One such moment was when a ultra light flying
far later than allowed popped out of the dark directly in front of me
when I was no more than a couple hundred yards (if that) from the end
of the runway. Another was on the VOR approach to MtPleasant where
you fly directly over the runway at 500 feet to the VOR to go missed
on 27. When the instructor's voice went up an octave and he said and
I quote..."What that...Oh, ****! Pull UP, Pull UP! I went full
power, stood the Deb on end and did a push over to level off that
left things floating. He never would tell me how close we came but
from his actions I'd say probably no more than a few feet. BTW I did
all of that under the hood. I mentioned to the CFI that I figured
had it been really close he'd have taken over. He said he figured
that I knew the limits of the plane and would react quicker than he
could even if he could see. He was right though, The urgency (I
couldeven feel him tense sitting next to me) told me that this should
be a maximum effort and not just a climb. Made me glad I use 120 for
approaches instead of 80 or 90 too:-))

Neither of these were things covered in primary training or the PTS.
They took a lot of time and practice getting to know the limits of
the Deb.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
I agree. I had to do 60 degree banked turns for my Private as well.

Sheesh. I can't remember what I had to do . I do remember spins, some
hood time and an engine failure on takeoff. I also remember filing and
putting in a cruising altitude of say, 3500 and then being so afraid to
deviate from it I flew underneat an overcast at that alt with my fin in
the clouds..


Bertie
A lot has changed since those days. If I remember right, the requirement
was for a 60 degree banked turn in both directions entering one from the
other within an altitude parameter either way of 50 feet. Just racking

That was permissible ,but they'd bitch if you were more than 20 feet
off.LOL Yah, they not only expected you to roll out on the proper
heading +/-10, but continue the roll right into the 360 in the other
direction...unless you wanted to make it a 720:-)) AND we did have
to do 720s at 60 degrees. ALL of this while maintaining PTS standards
for altitude, bank, and headings.

BTW if you did the roll out and into the other direction properly
you'd hit the wake every time you came around on the 720.

my memory here but that sounds close.....and this was for the PRIVATE!!
:-))
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Yeah, it was fun seeing the look on the student's faces as they got it
right and hit the wake.
In acro, you can do the same thing in a perfect loop on a calm day.
:-))

--
Dudley Henriques

"Roger" wrote in message
...
--------some snipped----------

Yup and half standard when you get any where near the airport. (Time
for a PARg)

I had wonderedl whether those were even still available.

Peter

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 13:32:46 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
wrote:

Mr. BIG HEAD, you've lost a star and the Mr.
You now just *Big Head*, you make too many
mistakes.

On Mar 13, 11:42 am, wrote:
On Mar 13, 1:19 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

snip

Night flying, IFR initiation, in good VFR the OUTSIDE
is peripheral vision, if you ever really flew an airplane.

Night flying VFR is the same as day VFR when finding the horizon at
least in most of the country. With IFR initiation peripheral vision
can get you into a whole lot of trouble including a beautiful shade of
green. Flicker vertigo is something to behold.


They need to see what the horizon is up to, not what
instruments are indicating. A glance at the ASI and altimeter every
few seconds is in order, but they're not to refer to the AI constantly
for steep turns.

How the **** do you set-up to a 60 bank?
and maintain constant altitude?

Look ahead, check the AI as you roll up to 60 degrees and pull back
on the yoke as you look back outside. Get the position of the nose on
the horizon and bank burned in your memory. Keep glancing back to the
AI for confirmation. you will eventually (with practice) find the
view outside pretty much stays at that the AI says. You add power to
maintain altitude. Again, practice will tell you how much. This is
confirmed by glancing at the ALTIMETER, NOT the VSI which is a TREND
instrument. If the VSI is showing movement you are already well
behind the airplane. The sensation created by rolling into a 2G turn
is one that many pilots dislike and it's not something you normally
start out doing 20 or 30 in a row.


We've had students who were all over the sky, chasing
instrument needles, so we sometimes cover up the whole panel and make
them do it by looking outside; the airplane settles down and behaves
itself. Amazing.

I'd not want to do away with the entire panel, BUT I have found many
Cherokee and Cessna pilots flying the Deb will end up in a PIO with in
just a few seconds. We'll be doing 2 Geeeesss out of the bottom and
ZEEeeROoooo over the top. All I have to do is tell them to quit
looking at the VSI and look out the windshield. I'll tell them when
to stop the horizon from going up and down. OK? Keep the horizon
right where you see it now. Glance at the altimeter. Check the
horizon position. OK glance at the altimeter again. Did it move up or
down? If up, just lower the nose a _little_bit_ if it went down, just
raise the nose a _little_bit. That's usually all it takes. The vast
majority of the time They are flying by the VSI and you can't do that
in a quick airplane. I can put it through the 2 Gs out of the
bottom and zero over the top while keeping the VSI steady. (Man, what
a rideg)



No that's pure BS.

This is standard Canadian PPL curriculum, and the US wouldn't
be much different.
Dan

Dan you don't even know what an Attitude Indicator does,
otherwise you would have opined on my question.

I'll leave *Big Head* Dan with one star, but probationary.
Ken
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mar 13, 8:44*am, Dudley Henriques wrote:
skym wrote:
* I guess my original question was really "how much of a comfort
factor, if any, is a coordinated turn vs a slip or skid while turning
at that point in the approach?"

Your "comfort factor" widens as you gain experience through exposure.

As you fly each approach and actually see and feel how the airplane
responds in various situations you will begin to feel more comfortable.
One thing that will help you is to leave the aerodynamics thinking on
the ground. Do your theory between flights. Not doing this can result in
you over working the problem. Just sit back, fly the airplane, and pay
attention to what's happening as you do this. I think you'll find that
each approach will get better generally. You will have some plateaus
where it all seems to go to hell, but hang in there.

One thing about approaches. Keep your main attention outside the
airplane. Don't over concentrate on the panel. Do your instrument
checking quickly and peripherally as you scan the horizon and your
visual positioning on the approach. Don't get all hung up on what the
ADI is doing. Your main attention at pattern altitude on down should be
NOSE ATTITUDE and VISUAL POSITIONING. Once you get used to this, you are
shortening the list of items on your multi-tasking list and your comfort
zone will widen for you.

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley,
Thanks. Very helpful.