Aviation crash videos on-line

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Well, not 20 seconds ago.....presh "refresh" , because you might have the
old link in your cash....

:-)

Iwan


Dead link for me too.

Keith




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"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Well Dudley,

In that case you could have simply written: "I hate it when people
spread
aviation crash videos for other purpose than aviation safety issues".
It
would have saved you a lot of unnecessary discussion.

I don't believe you quite understand what's been happening here.
I have absolutely no problem at all with people downloading to their
heart's content from your site and viewing all the crash footage they
can cram onto their computers. I merely saw what you are doing and
posted a simple one line statement that expressed my personal feelings
for both you and what you do. To reiterate, that statement was "I detest
people like you". Everything that has transpired since then is simply
the usual result on Usenet of people reading a comment like that and one
by one,
checking in with totally irrelevant comment. I say irrelevant because
what they have to say is related to THEM, not to me. I took the trouble
to engage the posters I wished to engage dealing with the reasons I had
personally for "detesting you". This wasn't done to change anything, or
even change anyone's opinions; simply to expand for clarity on MY
feelings for what you do.
I'm a slightly different poster than the usual you will find on Usenet
because when I post, I'm not looking for agreement. Agreement isn't
important to me when it comes to Usenet. I post what pleases me. If
someone gains from what I say, that's fine. If they hate my guts and
want me dead, that's fine too. Couldn't care less either way.
So you see, all this fuss about crash video being good or bad is of no
consequence to me personally at all. I could care less who watches crash
videos and who photographs it and why.
By all means, push your video and enjoy your hobby.
It's quite humorous to me that this thread demonstrates in exact clarity
the total reality of Usenet.
You posted for your site......I posted that I detest people like you
(note that this statement doesn't even address the "why" question or the
video question)......then come the masses to opine with their own
"opinions" on the matter, none of which by definition can address why I
detest you, which is really funny to me........finally here we are
again, after all this expended bandwidth, right back at the beginning.
You have your site. They have their opinions. I still detest you.
Nothing solved.
Welcome to Usenet! :-)



As you will have understood, I see things a little differently. Having
witnessed a major aircraft crash in which 70 people got killed because
a
demonstration pilot misjudged the situation, I use it for other
purposes.

Bull****! You make no mention anywhere on your site of being even
remotely interested in the safety issues involved with our work but as
I've said, I'm not trying to change what you do. I simply detest what
you do.

I hope more people are willing to share their crash video footage with
me,
and I will continue to share it with other people via my website.
Furthermore I will keep announcing the video wepage at the newsgroups
where
people might have an extra interest in viewing my videos. That would
best
serve my personal purpose.

I'm sure you will, as I'm sure there will be no end of people who will
make your efforts worthwhile. No problem with me at all Iwan. Go for it.

People can download the videos at http://www.dappa.nl-crash.htm and
use it
for safety issues,

I'm sorry, but just the video alone without a corresponding report does
little to serve the safety issue. To serve the safety issue, video must
be viewed in an investigative context by people who know how to evaluate
that video. Putting crash video on the net for viewing by the general
public with no expert comment directed at the safety issues involved
with the crash does little but allow an uneducated replay of the crash.
If you are indeed interested in flight safety, I would expect that the
video from every crash you have ever shot had been turned over to crash
investigation immediately after the crash, or at least a copy made and
distributed immediately to proper investigative authority.
When you can show me that this has been done by you, I'll consider not
"detesting" you all that much. Until that point, you don't fit any
description of a photographer interested in flight safety at all. You're
just one more web site junkie pushing your wares to enhance your own
image as a photographer.

viewing pleasure, collecting purposes or whatever other
goal they have. I won't judge them for the reason they look at it.


I'm sure you won't, and I won't either. What people do is their own
business, even you Iwan. I just happen to detest you that's all; no big
deal....never was!! :-)
If this thread had any purpose at all, it has served to enlighten a few
to how we in the airshow community view the issue of crash video. For
some, that will have been interesting. For the rest, who cares. Surely
not me. I learned a long time ago that the way to change the world was
DEFINITELY not on Usenet!

Enjoy!

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Well, not 20 seconds ago.....presh "refresh" , because you might have the
old link in your cash....

:-)

Iwan


Dead link for me too.

Keith

http://www.dappa.nl/crash.htm

John

I'm sorry, but just the video alone without a corresponding report does
little to serve the safety issue. To serve the safety issue, video must
be viewed in an investigative context by people who know how to evaluate
that video.

This is an excellent point, Dudley, and I would like to propose an idea that
could help all pilots, AND improve the utility of my website.

As I'm sure you are aware, I, too, have an aviation video page on our
hotel's website. (See it at
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm ) It is chock-full of
fascinating aviation videos, some that are just plain cool, some that show
landing in Iowa City for potential guests -- and others that depict terrible
crash footage.

In some cases I have included commentary from people who were actually
involved in the situations depicted. (The B-52 crash, for example.) With
most, however, I have no way to identify the people and pilots involved,
since most of the videos have been sent to me by fellow pilots from all over
the world.

You are an aviation expert with a unique expertise in aviation safety. You
are also obviously incensed at the notion of aviation crash videos being
viewed outside of the aviation safety context. As I've read your posts,
I've come around to see that there is much truth in your convictions.

I, on the other hand, am interested in maintaining (and expanding) a very
popular page on our website, not because it nets me any money (it does not)
but because I personally find these videos to be fascinating.

Perhaps we can meld the two together?

How would you like to provide a short commentary on each crash video, for
inclusion on our website? Perhaps a paragraph or two, with your expert
opinion on what happened, how the incident could have been prevented, what
steps have been taken since the accident to prevent a recurrence, etc., etc.

Really, you would have carte blanche to write whatever you felt was
appropriate, as a service to your fellow (and future) pilots.

What do you say? Want to help fix the problem?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:EY%_c.306956$eM2.73249@attbi_s51...
How would you like to provide a short commentary on each crash video, for
inclusion on our website? Perhaps a paragraph or two, with your expert
opinion on what happened

Regarding your video of the "tragic" mid-air crash between the two
Migs, I was there, it was RIAT Fairford '93. Both pilots walked away.
Literally. One walked back to the commentary box and apologised to
the crowd.

I have a half hour programme recorded about this incident with a lot of
comment from the pilots involved. If I can get hold of an analogue TV
adaptor for my PC, I'll digitise it and send it over.

Basically the no.2 says it was his fault. The leader went into cloud at
the top of a loop while the no.2 was flying in close formation. The no.2
pulled over harder to avoid going into cloud. He was now doing a
loop of a smaller dimension than the leader. Rather than knock it
off, he continued. The leader came around and not seeing the no.2,
decided to break up and out, the standard formation break. Not sure
I've got that 100% right but it's something similar. There was a no.3
guy on the ground in a transport plane and made a radio call to separate
the aircraft but happened to transmit the same time as someone else on
frequency.

Paul

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:EY%_c.306956$eM2.73249@attbi_s51...
I'm sorry, but just the video alone without a corresponding report
does
little to serve the safety issue. To serve the safety issue, video
must
be viewed in an investigative context by people who know how to
evaluate
that video.

This is an excellent point, Dudley, and I would like to propose an
idea that could help all pilots, AND improve the utility of my
website.

As I'm sure you are aware, I, too, have an aviation video page on our
hotel's website. (See it at
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm ) It is chock-full
of fascinating aviation videos, some that are just plain cool, some
that show landing in Iowa City for potential guests -- and others that
depict terrible crash footage.

In some cases I have included commentary from people who were actually
involved in the situations depicted. (The B-52 crash, for example.)
With most, however, I have no way to identify the people and pilots
involved, since most of the videos have been sent to me by fellow
pilots from all over the world.

You are an aviation expert with a unique expertise in aviation safety.
You are also obviously incensed at the notion of aviation crash videos
being viewed outside of the aviation safety context. As I've read
your posts, I've come around to see that there is much truth in your
convictions.

I, on the other hand, am interested in maintaining (and expanding) a
very popular page on our website, not because it nets me any money (it
does not) but because I personally find these videos to be
fascinating.

Perhaps we can meld the two together?

How would you like to provide a short commentary on each crash video,
for inclusion on our website? Perhaps a paragraph or two, with your
expert opinion on what happened, how the incident could have been
prevented, what steps have been taken since the accident to prevent a
recurrence, etc., etc.

Really, you would have carte blanche to write whatever you felt was
appropriate, as a service to your fellow (and future) pilots.

What do you say? Want to help fix the problem?

Well, first of all, and not to sound too sarcastic, I've been "helping
to fix the problem" all through my career.
That being said, I believe your site the video displayed there are well
within my definition for ethical presentation, not that this matters all
that much.
You have obviously made an effort to present these images in a proper
context, including safety related data whenever and wherever possible.
In other words, it's obvious from knowing you personally and being aware
of your genuine interest in aviation safety, including what you are
asking me to do, that your intent is to better the safety scene.
You should be aware however, in asking someone like me to offer comment
on a crash where I'm not involved with the investigation, that although
I might have a degree of experience in air safety matters, my opinion on
a video where I am not directly involved, or have not been directly
involved with the specifics of the accident, would simply be one more
opinion, no matter how "educated" from the sidelines.
In addition, I have just finished, along with a hand picked group of
pilots specializing in airshow and demonstration expertise, over a
year's direct involvement with Gen Barker's fine manual on airshow
safety, "Zero Error Margin". Included in this book is detailed
information on most of the videos on your site. This information is
accident specific and includes the official reports and notation from
professional pilots who are directly involved in our business. I highly
recommend that interested parties obtain a copy of this book, as I
consider it indispensable as a source of exactly the information you are
seeking from me.
In light of these circumstances, and also because I have little use for
the back and forth on these matters that occurs on Usenet, I will
respectfully decline your kind offer and refer you and all others
interested in the safety issues involved with these videos to Gen
Barker's book.
I will be most happy to supply the information needed to purchase this
volume...and before anyone on Usenet asks me.....NO, I didn't get paid
for my contributions to the book, NOR do I gain financially from the
sale of the book. All work on this volume was by invitation only and was
complete voluntary by all concerned!
Thank you
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:EY%_c.306956$eM2.73249@attbi_s51...

(snip)

First of all, thank you for posting the videos.

After downloading and viewing them all (thank goodness for broadband!), some
comments:

May I suggest that 'Cool Videos' might give the wrong impression, when quite
a few people die in the incidents depicted?

The MiG 29 crash, OTOH, was in no sense tragic. Nobody was hurt even, as
someone else has pointed out.

The Airbus crash was nothing to do with the FBW system, except in the sense
that the pilots trusted overmuch in it to keep them from crashing. It was
also not the first fully automatic aircraft, or whatever the exact form of
words you use are. Basically they flew too slow and low and their planning
was poor.

What the hell is the fake bird ad for the Ford Ka doing there?

Respectfully yours

John Mullen

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:EY%_c.306956$eM2.73249@attbi_s51...


I, on the other hand, am interested in maintaining (and expanding) a very
popular page on our website, not because it nets me any money (it does not)


Could you possibly be a little disingenuous here? You are much too
clever to have not realized how a "popular" web site might be an
advertisement for the "Inn." :-)

In article , Jim Rosinski wrote:
"Richard Smith" wrote

Of course you do dear, all top posting trolls-in-training do.

Top-posting, bottom-posting. Who gives a damn?

It's often harder to follow a discussion where a respondant top posts
because it's not as clear what points they are responding to. To add to
this, most top poster never bother to trim the quotes.

There are still many people on dialup at rates somewhat below 56K. Top
posts tend to add up until a thread contains mostly just quoted
material, in a massive trail underneath each 2 or 3 line response. In a
busy NG like this one, this can add a significant amount of download
time to those poor dialup users who want to read the NG offline (perhaps
because they have to pay telephone charges by the second).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

In article , John Mullen wrote:
What the hell is the fake bird ad for the Ford Ka doing there?

It does have a very tenuous flying connection, and it is hilarious.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"