Future of 15m

On Sunday, December 3, 2017 at 11:24:42 PM UTC-8, John Foster wrote:
Sounds like for competitive soaring to endure in the US, there needs to be a significant push to get more people involved. Sounds like there needs to be more focus on young people, getting them involved from an early age.

I'm from MT, and there is apparently only 1 soaring club in the state, and it is a solid 4hr drive from where I live. And from what I'm told, they are not very active, if at all. Yet there is an airport 1 mile from my house with a whole fleet of Piper Pawnees (used mostly for wildland firefighting). Not a whole lot of money locally, but the place would make for stunning soaring!

Where in MT do you live?

I've owned my Standard Class ASW 24 for over 25 years. So for some time, my big question has been whether I can continue to fly contests where at least some top pilots show up. As 9B's data indicate, that seems to be the case in Standard Class. It's a small group, true, but every class in soaring is small these days.

Encouraging me is that I can fly Standard (which has some nice handicapping to encourage older generation gliders), Club, Sports, and--at the regional level--mixed handicapped 15M/Standard (e.g., Fairfield Reg. 4). And subject to the efficacy of the handicapping factors, I have a competitive glider in all of them.

Yeah, the "subject to" is an issue, especially out west, but it's one I'm willing to live with. I can't justify buying a new glider so it's nice to think I don't have to.

Chip Bearden

Originally Posted by Rhubarb[_2_]

materials seem to have improved though. the GP15 is very light, which allows a lower wing area, which gives a higher aspect ratio, which is probably the reason behind the expected performance gains. (maybe thinner wing too)

The GP15 is a beautiful glider and promises to perform well. However we must remember it is built to a different set of standards than CS-22. This different conformity and lightness of build may affect crashworthiness and load limits.
It will be registered in the microlight or Ultralight category in a lot of countries which may restrict its wingloading and operating limits. Not sure where the USA sits in this regard.
Having said that they look fast. And when they look fast they generally go fast.

At 19:16 04 December 2017, Brett wrote:

'Rhubarb[_2_ Wrote:
;960350']materials seem to have improved though. the GP15 is
very light
which allows a lower wing area, which gives a higher aspect
ratio, whic
is probably the reason behind the expected performance gains.
(mayb
thinner wing too)

The GP15 is a beautiful glider and promises to perform well.
However w
must remember it is built to a different set of standards than CS-
22
This different conformity and lightness of build may affec
crashworthiness and load limits.
It will be registered in the microlight or Ultralight category in a lo
of countries which may restrict its wingloading and operating limits
Not sure where the USA sits in this regard.
Having said that they look fast. And when they look fast they
generall
go fast




--
Brett


The small wing area high aspect ratio,light glider didn't seem to
work too well for the Duckhawk (in terms of sales) the GP15 maybe
different? Small cockpit though- the demonstrator at Aero 2017
looked a little rough around the edges and surprisingly few people
taking an interest in it when I was there which surprised me. They
will need to shift a few if the GP14 is killed off by FAI rules in 13.5m
class.

On Monday, December 4, 2017 at 9:36:14 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Sunday, December 3, 2017 at 11:24:42 PM UTC-8, John Foster wrote:
Sounds like for competitive soaring to endure in the US, there needs to be a significant push to get more people involved. Sounds like there needs to be more focus on young people, getting them involved from an early age..

I'm from MT, and there is apparently only 1 soaring club in the state, and it is a solid 4hr drive from where I live. And from what I'm told, they are not very active, if at all. Yet there is an airport 1 mile from my house with a whole fleet of Piper Pawnees (used mostly for wildland firefighting). Not a whole lot of money locally, but the place would make for stunning soaring!

Where in MT do you live?

Ronan. Those Mission Mountains beckon me every day!

On Saturday, December 2, 2017 at 3:47:41 PM UTC-5, John Foster wrote:
With the rise in popularity of 18m soaring, what do you guys think will be the future of 15m? Are there enough advantages of 15m over 18m for it to continue to have a strong place in competition? It seems most manufacturers are now making 18m sailplanes, that can be converted to 15m, but they primarily start or come as 18m now. Thoughts?

15 Meter class has lots of competitive gliders at what many see as reasonable cost. Values are pretty stable.
My opinion is that they give a great deal of performance while being convenient to own and fly. Assembling my '29 takes almost twice as long and is a lot more effort than my '27 was. It also cost me 66% more than my '27 and the hull portion of my insurance is proportionately higher.
The 18's built now have 2 piece wings to make the trailers shorter and the weight and bulk of the wings less. The break point can easily be put where it is practical to provide compromise 15M tips. The bigger span has the benefit of keeping span loading reasonable when the engine that 80% of new buyers want is installed.
When asked the question I always suggest 15 vs 18 from a balanced perspective.
That said, I love my '29.
With the large number of good ships available at reasonable(your view may differ) cost, I expect 15M will be around a long time.
FWIW
UH

There are many places where I have flown cross-country where landing out in a 15m ship is a much easier proposition than anything 18m or larger. Many desert or farm strips are designed for crop-dusters or Cessnas. Here in the desert Southwest, conditions are also strong most of the time so that there are few benefits of longer wings.

If you want longer wings, better get a (reliable) engine!

Mike

Yes, reliable engines: that would be nice. Unfortunately no
motor gliders have Honda engines; second best might be a
Stemme with a proper 4 stroke?
However the Stemme (S10) is something of a heavy weight
with handling to match: enjoyable yes, capable yes, but if you
could choose to fly a modern 15m or the Stemme you'd choose
the 15m if handling pleasure mattered to you.
I hope the 15m class has a future; I think it's one problem is
wing loading when an engine is on board - hence all the
18m/20m/21m/25m stuff with engines. So you just need to be
a purist and fly "proper" gliders, I used to do this and it is
great up until the moment you have to put your sparkly new
$100K+ carbon fibre ship into an unknown field or some dirt
strip in the middle of a desert. Then you can suddenly
understand why most of those new German ships are bought
with engines.....

As any owner will tell you: there is no such thing as a reliable
motor glider, absolutely all their engines can be guaranteed to
work sometimes, often when you actually need them

Dave