A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Piloting
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old January 14th 06, 05:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

"tscottme" blahblah@blah,net wrote in message
...
I know at one time the US deployed tethered "blimps" carrying radar to
provide radar coverage along the border, and even in the Florida Keys.

I've
seen the lighter-than-air vehicles while flying or driving in the area.
It's been a few years since I was near the areas. I'm not sure if they
still operate or not.


As of about a year or so ago, there was still one down in the Keys... The
one that is south of Houston along the coast, I haven't stumbled across in a
few years, but I suspect it's still there...


  #42  
Old January 14th 06, 05:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:52:42 GMT, Jack wrote in
::

Larry Dighera wrote:

Why...deploy UAVs for the mission of securing the
nation's southern border? Because UAVs cost millions of dollars, and
require a crew of 7 on the ground to operate them....


How many people are required to keep a 182 operating on the same mission?


That's a good question. Perhaps you'll find time to research it.

It's clear that it doesn't take 7 people to fly a C-172 as it does a
UAV.
  #43  
Old January 14th 06, 05:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:16:13 -0800, Richard Riley
wrote in
::

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:45:58 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

:On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:52:21 -0800, Richard Riley
wrote in
::
:
:Is the equipment specification in that Request For Proposal a result
f necessity to accomplish the mission of securing the nation's
:boarders, or was the specification established to conform to
re-existing UAV equipment? (are you able to provide a URL for the
:RFP?)

Search for hsbp1005r0425


These two references were all I found:



http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2005...O-00833130.htm
FBO DAILY ISSUE OF JUNE 23, 2005 FBO #1305
SOLICITATION NOTICE

15 -- Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV)
Notice Date
6/21/2005

Notice Type
Solicitation Notice

NAICS
541330 — Engineering Services

Contracting Office
DHS - Border and Transportation Security, Customs and Border
Protection, Office of Procurement, 1300 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.,
Room 1310 NP, Washington, DC, 20229

ZIP Code
20229

Solicitation Number
HSBP1005R0425

Response Due
7/19/2005

Archive Date
8/3/2005

Description
Please Note that this Announcement is issued in order to upload
Solicitation HSBP1005R0425 into FebBizOpps and is not a notice of
a new requirement. It is the resulting solicitation that was
announced earlier as Reference Number 5-10-2005-UAV-FY05 SUBJECT:
PRESOLICITATION NOTICE - Department of Homeland Security Unmanned
Aerial Vehicle (UAV). GENERAL INFORMATION: The Department of
Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Office of
Border Patrol intends to issue a Request for Proposal (RFP) to
procure an operating UAV system(s) (UAV airframe(s) and sensors,
Ground Control Stations (GCSs), Sensor Control Terminals (SCTs)
and Remote Viewing Terminals (RVTs)). CBP is seeking sources that
can provide a medium altitude long endurance UAV system(s),
support equipment, air vehicle and sensor operators, maintenance
personnel and systems integration support. Initial operations are
intended to be conducted on the Southern Border of the United
States. CBP intends to commence UAV operations 30 days after
contract award. CBP anticipates conducting operations during 4th
Quarter FY 05. Operations and maintenance support shall be
month-to-month for a minimum of 224 hours per month, with the
potential for increased flying hours each month, above the
minimum. For this effort an Indefinite Delivery, Indefinite
Quantity type contract for engineering services, Time and Material
for operations and maintenance support, and Firm Fixed Price (FFP)
pricing arrangements for UAV systems is anticipated. The
Government anticipates a single-award contract pursuant to the
criteria in the RFP. This will be a Full and Open Competition. It
is anticipated that the solicitation will be issued on or about
May 26, 2005. Note: The reference number used to identify this
pre-solicitation notice is not the solicitation number. When the
solicitation for this requirement is posted a DHS solicitation
number with the appropriate nomenclature will be used. POINT OF
CONTACT: U.S. Customs and Border Protection, Office of
Procurement, Suite 1310, ATTN: Sharon Lim, 1300 Pennsylvania Ave.,
NW, Washington, D.C. 20229. All questions and comments should be
in writing and should be directed to the Contracting Officer,
Sharon Lim, via email. The contact information for the contracting
officer is as follows: Telephone (202) 344-1112, Fax (202)
344-1190 or Email: .

Place of Performance
Address: Southern Border of the United States

Record
SN00833130-W 20050623/050621211521 (fbodaily.com)

Source
FedBizOpps.gov Link to This Notice
(may not be valid after Archive Date)




http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2005...O-00834206.htm

FBO DAILY ISSUE OF JUNE 24, 2005 FBO #1306
MODIFICATION

15 -- Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV)
Notice Date
6/22/2005

Notice Type
Modification

NAICS
336411 — Aircraft Manufacturing

Contracting Office
DHS - Border and Transportation Security, Customs and Border
Protection, Office of Procurement, 1300 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.,
Room 1310 NP, Washington, DC, 20229

ZIP Code
20229

Solicitation Number
Reference-Number-5-10-2005-UAV-FY05

Response Due
7/19/2005

Archive Date
8/3/2005

Description
PLEASE NOTE: INFORMATION RELATING TO THIS REQUIREMENT IS NOW
AVAILABLE UNDER SOLICITATION REFERENCE NUMBER: HSBP1005R0425 WHICH
WAS POSTED 6/21/2005 SUBJECT: PRESOLICITATION NOTICE - Department
of Homeland Security Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV). GENERAL
INFORMATION: The Department of Homeland Security, Customs and
Border Protection (CBP) Office of Border Patrol intends to issue a
Request for Proposal (RFP) to procure an operating UAV system(s)
(UAV airframe(s) and sensors, Ground Control Stations (GCSs),
Sensor Control Terminals (SCTs) and Remote Viewing Terminals
(RVTs)). CBP is seeking sources that can provide a medium altitude
long endurance UAV system(s), support equipment, air vehicle and
sensor operators, maintenance personnel and systems integration
support. Initial operations are intended to be conducted on the
Southern Border of the United States. CBP intends to commence UAV
operations 30 days after contract award. CBP anticipates
conducting operations during 4th Quarter FY 05. Operations and
maintenance support shall be month-to-month for a minimum of 224
hours per month, with the potential for increased flying hours
each month, above the minimum. For this effort an Indefinite
Delivery, Indefinite Quantity type contract for engineering
services, Time and Material for operations and maintenance
support, and Firm Fixed Price (FFP) pricing arrangements for UAV
systems is anticipated. The Government anticipates a single-award
contract pursuant to the criteria in the RFP. This will be a Full
and Open Competition. It is anticipated that the solicitation will
be issued on or about May 26, 2005. Note: The reference number
used to identify this pre-solicitation notice is not the
solicitation number. When the solicitation for this requirement is
posted a DHS solicitation number with the appropriate nomenclature
will be used. POINT OF CONTACT: U.S. Customs and Border
Protection, Office of Procurement, Suite 1310, ATTN: Sharon Lim,
1300 Pennsylvania Ave., NW, Washington, D.C. 20229. All questions
and comments should be in writing and should be directed to the
Contracting Officer, Sharon Lim, via email. The contact
information for the contracting officer is as follows: Telephone
(202) 344-1112, Fax (202) 344-1190 or Email: .

Record
SN00834206-W 20050624/050622211524 (fbodaily.com)

Source
FedBizOpps.gov Link to This Notice
(may not be valid after Archive Date)


And then there's the irony of this:
http://uvscanada.org/blog/?p=13 .
Imagine an American neighboring country looking at US border patrol
equipment.


None of the manufacturers were able to provide a UAV that met all
their specs, so the specs were NOT written to match existing hardware.


Unfortunately, I wasn't able to locate those specifications on-line.
Are you able to provide a URL for them?

Predator B won, they came the closest.



From the General Atomics Aeronautical Systems, Inc web-site:

http://www.uav.com/products/predator_b.html
The Predator B aircraft was developed in 2000 with first flight
commencing in February 2001. Powered by a turboprop engine, the
Predator B series was designed as a long-endurance, high-altitude
unmanned aircraft for use as a multi-mission system by a variety
of customers. From reconnaissance, surveillance, targeting, and
weapons delivery to scientific research and other civilian
applications, Predator B has the capacity to conduct multiple
missions simultaneously due to its large internal and external
payload capacity.


PREDATOR B
Military Multi-Mission ISR
Wingspan: 66 ft (20.1168m)
Fuselage: 36 ft (10.9728m)
Weight: 10,000 lb (4536 kg)
Altitude: 50,000 ft
Endurance: 30+ hr
Payload: Internal - 800 lb (363 kg)
External - 3,000 lb (1361 kg)
Powerplant: Honeywell TPE 331-10T
Air Speed: Over 220 kn
Customer: U.S. Air Force


ALTAIR
High-Altitude
Scientific Research
Wingspan: 86 ft (26.2128m)
Fuselage: 36 ft (10.9728m)
Weight: 7,000 lb (3175 kg)
Altitude: 52,000 ft
Endurance: 30+ hr
Payload: Internal - 660 lb (300 kg)
External - 3,000 lb (1361 kg)
Powerplant: Honeywell TPE 331-10T
Air Speed: TBA
Customer: NASA


MARINER
Long-Endurance
Border & Maritime Surveillance
Wingspan: 86 ft (26.2128m)
Fuselage: 36 ft (10.9728m)
Weight: 10,500 lb (4763 kg)
Altitude: 52,000 ft
Endurance: 49+ hr
Payload: Internal - 800 lb (363 kg)
External - 3,000 lb (1361 kg)
Powerplant: Honeywell TPE 331-10T
Air Speed: Over 220 kn
Customer: U.S. Navy, Dept of Homeland Security


More information he
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/predator/


Other proposals were less
expensive, and one (at least) took a very creative approach to provide
the same capabilities using smaller vehicles at lower cost, but it
didn't quite conform to the requirements.


It sure would be interesting to see those requirements (and the
proposals).

I don't agree with your basic assumptions, but since I work in the
field I won't engage you debate.


I respect your decision, but what better debate is there but that
between two people with differing viewpoints? You shouldn't have
anything to fear (from your government nor employer). If the decision
to employ UAVs for border patrol can't stand open public debate,
perhaps there is something suspect about it.

  #44  
Old January 14th 06, 05:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:20:24 -0500, "Morgans"
wrote in ::


"Larry Dighera" wrote

In fact, to my knowledge, the UAV manufacturers have
not yet demonstrated a synthetic vision system adequate to permit UAVs
to comply with FAA see-and-avoid regulations.


You know, I wonder why they have not developed some means, yet.


It's probably quite difficult.

Don't forget, these UAVs operate antonymous (without operator input)
on some missions and whenever the command radio link is inoperative.
At those times there is no possibility of human intervention in the
event of a potential MAC.

There are certainly radar systems that could be tuned to detect planes in the area.


But, could they be shown to be infallible?

Perhaps they could just swing their existing ground surveillance systems up
and around the surrounding airspace once in a while, to make sure the
airspace is clear?


What of the NORDO wooden glider with the right of way over powered
aircraft?

  #45  
Old January 14th 06, 06:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

Larry Dighera wrote:

It's clear that it doesn't take 7 people to fly a C-172 as it does a
UAV.


And it's also clear you can't give the Cessna the UAV's capabilities.

You appear to have a political axe to grind, since you can't demonstrate
any mission advantage to the Cessna.

Here's a political football for you: the whole damn border ought to be a
TFR and a triple concertina wired no-man's land, with well-armed guards
shooting on sight anything that moves.


Jack
  #46  
Old January 14th 06, 07:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:58:22 GMT, Jack wrote:

Here's a political football for you: the whole damn border ought to be a
TFR and a triple concertina wired no-man's land, with well-armed guards
shooting on sight anything that moves.


ask the former border patrols from East-Germany. They have some knowledge.
Also the Chinese might help a little.

#m
--
If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh?
If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?
W. Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice, Act III, scene I
  #47  
Old January 14th 06, 07:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:58:22 GMT, Jack wrote in
::

Larry Dighera wrote:

It's clear that it doesn't take 7 people to fly a C-172 as it does a
UAV.


And it's also clear you can't give the Cessna the UAV's capabilities.


Which is it, the Cessna or the UAV's capabilities? (I always love it
when I've got 'em sputterin'.)

If you question any of the information I have provided, it is your
responsibility to find data that supports your argument, not mine.

You appear to have a political axe to grind,


Yes. I am not happy with Bush's unconstitutional/illegal repeal of
personal liberty and privacy, upon which this UAV patrolled border
policy seems to further encroach.

since you can't demonstrate any mission advantage to the Cessna.


I find cost to be an advantage. Don't you?

Here's a political football for you: the whole damn border ought to be a
TFR and a triple concertina wired no-man's land, with well-armed guards
shooting on sight anything that moves.


Why?

  #48  
Old January 14th 06, 07:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder

tscottme wrote:
I know at one time the US deployed tethered "blimps" carrying radar to
provide radar coverage along the border, and even in the Florida Keys. I've
seen the lighter-than-air vehicles while flying or driving in the area.
It's been a few years since I was near the areas. I'm not sure if they
still operate or not.
Click here for more info http://tinyurl.com/9wjup


The aerostats are still in place. You can find them on aviation
charts covering the appropriate areas.

Mike
  #49  
Old January 14th 06, 07:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder


"John Doe" wrote in message
ink.net...
How much of the American boarder with Mexico is out of radar contact?

There was some fuss about the FAA creating TFRs for the UAVs that are
flying with boarder patrol along the Mexico. Why can't the UAV just fly
along under an IFR flight plan and everyone else just avoid the little
thing just like any other plane on an IFR flight plan?

When there is so much talk about securing the boarders, I can't imagine
that there is any strip of the boarder that we can not monitor by radar.


What if we made the boarder area a MOA instead of a TFR?

Seems to me the risk of a mid-air is much higher flying through an active
MOA (which is currently allowed) with a manned fighter jet moving at
tactical speeds than it is with a slow moving UAV (even though it's
unmanned).



  #50  
Old January 14th 06, 07:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder


"Bob Fry" wrote in message
news
"JD" == John Doe writes:

JD Why can't the UAV just fly along under an IFR flight plan and
JD everyone else just avoid the little thing just like any other
JD plane on an IFR flight plan?

Because that's not the way it works in VMC. In VMC, *everybody*
avoids everybody else visually, as well as with other aids (ATC). So
if the "little thing" is flying, and I'm flying, and it's VMC and I'm
not talking to ATC, and I don't see that "little thing", and of course
nobody is onboard the UAV to see me....midairs happen.

So how does it work with the Global Hawk UAV which was granted a national
certificate of authorization by the FAA in 2003 to fly on an IFR flight plan
in unrestricted airspace in the US?


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.