2015 18m Nationals

On Saturday, September 20, 2014 2:51:52 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
Could anyone explain why 2 years in a row we have 18 m Nationals on the west coast? This year Minden and next year Hobbs. As far as I remember Bermuda High was willing to host the 18m Nationals in 2015. This arrangement is totally unfair to East Coast pilots.



Does that mean 2016 and 2017 are going to be on the East coast?



I know some of the decision makers read this news group maybe someone is going to comment?



AK

AK, this is not an attempt to stir the pot. Question? Have you sent the chair, of the BOD, of the SSA and asked him? His email can be found on the SSA website. As you might know, the BOD approves what is forwarded to them, from the site selection committee. My thoughts for a least one question (HINT) to Richard, who flies regularly at Bermuda High, is, "how it ever got on the SSA website to begin with, since it was never approved?"

Over the years, the site selection committee has gone to great lengths to even find a host for some of our Nationals. They even came up with how and what an event should have in order be run with success. Years past, their was no direction even offered a contest manager or hosting organization. Heck, one even flew on her own expense, to present the IGC the paperwork, to bring the WGC to Uvalde.

There also seems to be confusion as how these "zones" work. The most important is, "bids" are needed for the system to work. Again, this years National turnout wasn't stellar. Lowest turnout for the 15 Meter Nationals in their history. Standard Nationals were cancelled, due to lack of entrants. Even the 18's, which were held at one of the worlds premier soaring sites, Minden, had a low turn out. New Castle had a waiting list for many years, today....check the SSA site! The organizers need to at least break even. The hat has been passed amongst the entrants, more than once, to help these folks out.

The zones, as I have been told, were altered for 2015, because of a special request from Elmira. A special celebration concerning our past history is in store. Hint, it's what was quietly told to me.

Sometimes, as we know, all the story isn't told, which leads to false conclusions, which might seem justified at the time. I do hope you find your answer.

Best, Tom Kelley. #711.

On Monday, 22 September 2014 18:17:59 UTC-6, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
On Saturday, September 20, 2014 2:51:52 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

Could anyone explain why 2 years in a row we have 18 m Nationals on the west coast? This year Minden and next year Hobbs. As far as I remember Bermuda High was willing to host the 18m Nationals in 2015. This arrangement is totally unfair to East Coast pilots.







Does that mean 2016 and 2017 are going to be on the East coast?







I know some of the decision makers read this news group maybe someone is going to comment?







AK



AK, this is not an attempt to stir the pot. Question? Have you sent the chair, of the BOD, of the SSA and asked him? His email can be found on the SSA website. As you might know, the BOD approves what is forwarded to them, from the site selection committee. My thoughts for a least one question (HINT) to Richard, who flies regularly at Bermuda High, is, "how it ever got on the SSA website to begin with, since it was never approved?"



Over the years, the site selection committee has gone to great lengths to even find a host for some of our Nationals. They even came up with how and what an event should have in order be run with success. Years past, their was no direction even offered a contest manager or hosting organization. Heck, one even flew on her own expense, to present the IGC the paperwork, to bring the WGC to Uvalde.



There also seems to be confusion as how these "zones" work. The most important is, "bids" are needed for the system to work. Again, this years National turnout wasn't stellar. Lowest turnout for the 15 Meter Nationals in their history. Standard Nationals were cancelled, due to lack of entrants. Even the 18's, which were held at one of the worlds premier soaring sites, Minden, had a low turn out. New Castle had a waiting list for many years, today...check the SSA site! The organizers need to at least break even. The hat has been passed amongst the entrants, more than once, to help these folks out.



The zones, as I have been told, were altered for 2015, because of a special request from Elmira. A special celebration concerning our past history is in store. Hint, it's what was quietly told to me.



Sometimes, as we know, all the story isn't told, which leads to false conclusions, which might seem justified at the time. I do hope you find your answer.



Best, Tom Kelley. #711.

Tom, thanks for the history lesson. Can you point me to where 'zones' are defined? you allude to the fact that may have been altered for 2015 for some definition must exist.

I do try to understand how we got to where we are and I am trying to keep contests going in the west. Hoping to continue to have contests in Utah in 2015 and are preparing for the nationals in 2016.

Ron Gleason

On Monday, September 22, 2014 8:17:59 PM UTC-4, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
On Saturday, September 20, 2014 2:51:52 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

Could anyone explain why 2 years in a row we have 18 m Nationals on the west coast? This year Minden and next year Hobbs. As far as I remember Bermuda High was willing to host the 18m Nationals in 2015. This arrangement is totally unfair to East Coast pilots.







Does that mean 2016 and 2017 are going to be on the East coast?







I know some of the decision makers read this news group maybe someone is going to comment?







AK



AK, this is not an attempt to stir the pot. Question? Have you sent the chair, of the BOD, of the SSA and asked him? His email can be found on the SSA website. As you might know, the BOD approves what is forwarded to them, from the site selection committee. My thoughts for a least one question (HINT) to Richard, who flies regularly at Bermuda High, is, "how it ever got on the SSA website to begin with, since it was never approved?"



Over the years, the site selection committee has gone to great lengths to even find a host for some of our Nationals. They even came up with how and what an event should have in order be run with success. Years past, their was no direction even offered a contest manager or hosting organization. Heck, one even flew on her own expense, to present the IGC the paperwork, to bring the WGC to Uvalde.



There also seems to be confusion as how these "zones" work. The most important is, "bids" are needed for the system to work. Again, this years National turnout wasn't stellar. Lowest turnout for the 15 Meter Nationals in their history. Standard Nationals were cancelled, due to lack of entrants. Even the 18's, which were held at one of the worlds premier soaring sites, Minden, had a low turn out. New Castle had a waiting list for many years, today...check the SSA site! The organizers need to at least break even. The hat has been passed amongst the entrants, more than once, to help these folks out.



The zones, as I have been told, were altered for 2015, because of a special request from Elmira. A special celebration concerning our past history is in store. Hint, it's what was quietly told to me.



Sometimes, as we know, all the story isn't told, which leads to false conclusions, which might seem justified at the time. I do hope you find your answer.



Best, Tom Kelley. #711.

Tom, very thoughtful response. What I am looking for is transparency. If decisions are made deviating from what normally happens it would be nice to have reasons communicated to us. Everyone would understand if there is a higher cause. The problem is once you make one exception then other exceptions need to follow due to the fact you don't want to have all Nationals concentrated on one side of the country. Anyway, I should not be looking for this kind of information these things should be documented either as minutes on SSA website or some other form. I really don't like behind closed doors business without any report out.

I hope this clarifies things a bit. I used to be on a board of directors in one of the clubs I was a member of. Meeting minutes were always produced and easily accessible. Decisions and reasons were always communicated. It would be nice if we followed this path at the SSA level.

Andrzej

Andrzej:

I guess a point lost in my ramblings was that maybe we should not be choosing the world team at our nationals but from another more tailored selection contest.

This would get rid of those hard-core competitors and open up the field to those who just want to race, but not too competitively.

It sure seems like Nationals are becoming painted as either a contest "just for those who want to fly at the WGC", or a contest "for anyone that wants to show up to have some fun flying"

I myself see a Nationals as a place to push the limit and compete against the best of my peers to the limit of my abilities. But maybe I should just give in to the "dumbing down" of contests and accept "nationals" that reward everyone just for showing up.

EY



On Monday, September 22, 2014 2:56:23 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Sunday, September 21, 2014 10:10:42 PM UTC-4, Tim wrote:

SNIP TT Wrote:



I have become very concerned about the overall quality of the US pilots going to the Worlds because we are selecting only from those that have the money and time to drive across the country each year or those that get lucky enough to have contests line up in their half of the country during selection periods.







TT -







I too am very concerned about the quality of the US Teams we are sending overseas. The US Team should be one of the top tier teams and not toward the bottom/middle of the score sheet. It is my opinion that if we continue to use the randomly sited US nationals as US Team selection venues we will continue to get sub-optimum results at WGC's.







While I am not in favor of making the process unnecessarily costly or time consuming if those we send are used to only local, short drive and less costly competition domestically, they are going to be in for quite a shock when they face the cost, complexity, and foreign-ness of going to many a non-North American WGC site.







I thought part of the commitment to making the US team was to make pilots expend the effort to fly in different locales and weather conditions so that they would be better rounded and prepared for the rigors of a WGC. If this effort requires a long-drive, then so be it. I do not like it, but I accept it as part of the "game" and it has made me a better pilot having gone through the rigors of the current system.







As far as East/West Nationals selecting US Teams, I would be very concerned about the qualities of the teams we send if Westerners only race in Western conditions and Easterners only race in Eastern conditions. This does not immediately strike me as sending well rounded pilots to WGC's. I know some top-notch flatland pilots who almost literally s--t bricks at the thought of a mountain site or the eastern ridge sites.







In addition to some of the criteria you are in favor of, I would love to add another one: site the selection nationals in any two year selection cycle at sites that roughly replicate the challenges of the WGC that is being selected for. Or better yet, come up with an appropriately sited "selection contest" that would be held over a two-year cycle. Maybe a selection contest where the top 10 rated pilots in each WGC class would be invited to compete for the team slots in terrain and weather conditions like they will face at the next WGC







For instance, the conditions found at Hobbs for Club Class Nationals in 2015, could hardly be more different from the Lithuanian conditions the US Club Class team will face in 2016. If team selection criteria were being considered, it would make much more sense for the 2015 Club Class Nationals to be sited somewhere East (i.e. Ceasar Creek perhaps?)







I am glad to see the Pan-American contest being organized for next year, just wish it was being held during the summer months when more could attend.







On this one, you are preaching to the choir in my case, as many contests seem to be increasingly creeping into the school year. For those who are unencumbered by the school year, good for you. For those of us who are so-encumbered, and who are probably among the more youthful demographic many of us say we long for in the sport, it puts a serious crimp in plans to compete.







Maybe we should just put all contests in central Kansas and make everyone (except the Kansans among us) feel the pain of the trip and flying in "foreign" conditions :-)







Thanks all for reading my thoughts,



Tim McAllister EY



Tim, There is more to Nationals than just selecting team members. Not everyone wants to go to the worlds.



Andrzej

On Monday, September 22, 2014 9:00:15 PM UTC-4, Tim wrote:
Andrzej:



I guess a point lost in my ramblings was that maybe we should not be choosing the world team at our nationals but from another more tailored selection contest.



This would get rid of those hard-core competitors and open up the field to those who just want to race, but not too competitively.



It sure seems like Nationals are becoming painted as either a contest "just for those who want to fly at the WGC", or a contest "for anyone that wants to show up to have some fun flying"



I myself see a Nationals as a place to push the limit and compete against the best of my peers to the limit of my abilities. But maybe I should just give in to the "dumbing down" of contests and accept "nationals" that reward everyone just for showing up.



EY







On Monday, September 22, 2014 2:56:23 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

On Sunday, September 21, 2014 10:10:42 PM UTC-4, Tim wrote:



SNIP TT Wrote:







I have become very concerned about the overall quality of the US pilots going to the Worlds because we are selecting only from those that have the money and time to drive across the country each year or those that get lucky enough to have contests line up in their half of the country during selection periods.















TT -















I too am very concerned about the quality of the US Teams we are sending overseas. The US Team should be one of the top tier teams and not toward the bottom/middle of the score sheet. It is my opinion that if we continue to use the randomly sited US nationals as US Team selection venues we will continue to get sub-optimum results at WGC's.















While I am not in favor of making the process unnecessarily costly or time consuming if those we send are used to only local, short drive and less costly competition domestically, they are going to be in for quite a shock when they face the cost, complexity, and foreign-ness of going to many a non-North American WGC site.















I thought part of the commitment to making the US team was to make pilots expend the effort to fly in different locales and weather conditions so that they would be better rounded and prepared for the rigors of a WGC. If this effort requires a long-drive, then so be it. I do not like it, but I accept it as part of the "game" and it has made me a better pilot having gone through the rigors of the current system.















As far as East/West Nationals selecting US Teams, I would be very concerned about the qualities of the teams we send if Westerners only race in Western conditions and Easterners only race in Eastern conditions. This does not immediately strike me as sending well rounded pilots to WGC's. I know some top-notch flatland pilots who almost literally s--t bricks at the thought of a mountain site or the eastern ridge sites.















In addition to some of the criteria you are in favor of, I would love to add another one: site the selection nationals in any two year selection cycle at sites that roughly replicate the challenges of the WGC that is being selected for. Or better yet, come up with an appropriately sited "selection contest" that would be held over a two-year cycle. Maybe a selection contest where the top 10 rated pilots in each WGC class would be invited to compete for the team slots in terrain and weather conditions like they will face at the next WGC















For instance, the conditions found at Hobbs for Club Class Nationals in 2015, could hardly be more different from the Lithuanian conditions the US Club Class team will face in 2016. If team selection criteria were being considered, it would make much more sense for the 2015 Club Class Nationals to be sited somewhere East (i.e. Ceasar Creek perhaps?)















I am glad to see the Pan-American contest being organized for next year, just wish it was being held during the summer months when more could attend.















On this one, you are preaching to the choir in my case, as many contests seem to be increasingly creeping into the school year. For those who are unencumbered by the school year, good for you. For those of us who are so-encumbered, and who are probably among the more youthful demographic many of us say we long for in the sport, it puts a serious crimp in plans to compete.















Maybe we should just put all contests in central Kansas and make everyone (except the Kansans among us) feel the pain of the trip and flying in "foreign" conditions :-)















Thanks all for reading my thoughts,







Tim McAllister EY







Tim, There is more to Nationals than just selecting team members. Not everyone wants to go to the worlds.







Andrzej

Tim, I am with you on pushing hard. My point was that we should not locate Nationals just to match conditions at the next worlds. That is all. I think Nationals should be challenging with long days, but that is a bit of topic..

On Monday, September 22, 2014 6:35:28 PM UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Monday, 22 September 2014 18:17:59 UTC-6, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:

On Saturday, September 20, 2014 2:51:52 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:



Could anyone explain why 2 years in a row we have 18 m Nationals on the west coast? This year Minden and next year Hobbs. As far as I remember Bermuda High was willing to host the 18m Nationals in 2015. This arrangement is totally unfair to East Coast pilots.















Does that mean 2016 and 2017 are going to be on the East coast?















I know some of the decision makers read this news group maybe someone is going to comment?















AK







AK, this is not an attempt to stir the pot. Question? Have you sent the chair, of the BOD, of the SSA and asked him? His email can be found on the SSA website. As you might know, the BOD approves what is forwarded to them, from the site selection committee. My thoughts for a least one question (HINT) to Richard, who flies regularly at Bermuda High, is, "how it ever got on the SSA website to begin with, since it was never approved?"







Over the years, the site selection committee has gone to great lengths to even find a host for some of our Nationals. They even came up with how and what an event should have in order be run with success. Years past, their was no direction even offered a contest manager or hosting organization. Heck, one even flew on her own expense, to present the IGC the paperwork, to bring the WGC to Uvalde.







There also seems to be confusion as how these "zones" work. The most important is, "bids" are needed for the system to work. Again, this years National turnout wasn't stellar. Lowest turnout for the 15 Meter Nationals in their history. Standard Nationals were cancelled, due to lack of entrants. Even the 18's, which were held at one of the worlds premier soaring sites, Minden, had a low turn out. New Castle had a waiting list for many years, today...check the SSA site! The organizers need to at least break even. The hat has been passed amongst the entrants, more than once, to help these folks out.







The zones, as I have been told, were altered for 2015, because of a special request from Elmira. A special celebration concerning our past history is in store. Hint, it's what was quietly told to me.







Sometimes, as we know, all the story isn't told, which leads to false conclusions, which might seem justified at the time. I do hope you find your answer.







Best, Tom Kelley. #711.



Tom, thanks for the history lesson. Can you point me to where 'zones' are defined? you allude to the fact that may have been altered for 2015 for some definition must exist.



I do try to understand how we got to where we are and I am trying to keep contests going in the west. Hoping to continue to have contests in Utah in 2015 and are preparing for the nationals in 2016.



Ron Gleason

Zones are not defined, as our Nationals need to be held somewhere. Sometimes its hard to find a "host". So the zone (west...mid...east) is enlarged if and when a bidder steps in. The site selection committee does try to follow the rotation and makes a recommendation to the BOD which then makes the final decision.
As I was told, their were no bids received for the 15's within their "zone".. Elmira stepped in and asked...by what was shared with me....so thats how it went where its at. I would think the rotation will be again be followed....if "hosts" within these so called loosely defined "zones" turn in bids.

Mixing of the classes are for one main reason, for the "host" to break even.. Many know what you, Bruno and your folks are doing for the sport and its not going unnoticed.

Best, Tom.

The zones, as I have been told, were altered for 2015, because of a special request from Elmira. A special celebration concerning our past history is in store. Hint, it's what was quietly told to me.


As the guy who submitted the application for the 15m/Std. class nationals at Harris Hill, I just want to clarify that there was no special request. I just wanted to host a contest at a great spot that hasn't host an FAI class nationals in a while. No special treatment was extended as far as I know - and I would know. The app was submitted and approved.

There were some other comments about having more contests during the summer when our younger participants can attend with families. I agree. The dates of the Harris Hill contest were selected for this reason and so that our junior members would be able to attend and help with line. Having a dozen or more young pilots help with line adds a lot of good energy to a comp and is important to the future of our sport.

As for the weather in Elmira, it is exactly like many parts of continental Europe.

Harris Hill is a great place to fly with excellent facilities. I hope many of you can join us next summer and I would like to encourage all pilots to bring a young person from their club as crew.

Sean Murphy
XC

On Thursday, October 2, 2014 6:45:17 AM UTC-6, XC wrote:
The zones, as I have been told, were altered for 2015, because of a special request from Elmira. A special celebration concerning our past history is in store. Hint, it's what was quietly told to me.





As the guy who submitted the application for the 15m/Std. class nationals at Harris Hill, I just want to clarify that there was no special request. I just wanted to host a contest at a great spot that hasn't host an FAI class nationals in a while. No special treatment was extended as far as I know - and I would know. The app was submitted and approved.



There were some other comments about having more contests during the summer when our younger participants can attend with families. I agree. The dates of the Harris Hill contest were selected for this reason and so that our junior members would be able to attend and help with line. Having a dozen or more young pilots help with line adds a lot of good energy to a comp and is important to the future of our sport.



As for the weather in Elmira, it is exactly like many parts of continental Europe.



Harris Hill is a great place to fly with excellent facilities. I hope many of you can join us next summer and I would like to encourage all pilots to bring a young person from their club as crew.



Sean Murphy

XC

Sean, thank you, that's good to hear.

Yet, over 3 years ago, the site selection committee chair, Linda, received a call, from another person, which asked if the 15's and Standards could be held together during 2015 at Harris Hill (does 2015 mark 75 years of soaring at Harris Hill? I really have no idea). During the conversation (probably now a communication error), a celebration of 75 years of soaring at Harris Hill might also occur during the Nationals event. Since it fell into the rotation, no problems were seen, also no other bids were received at that time. It ALL sounded great!!

As was previously stated in another thread, these folks are helping organize contests being held, not just to **** people off.

Best. Tom.

On Thursday, October 2, 2014 6:45:17 AM UTC-6, XC wrote:
The zones, as I have been told, were altered for 2015, because of a special request from Elmira. A special celebration concerning our past history is in store. Hint, it's what was quietly told to me.





As the guy who submitted the application for the 15m/Std. class nationals at Harris Hill, I just want to clarify that there was no special request. I just wanted to host a contest at a great spot that hasn't host an FAI class nationals in a while. No special treatment was extended as far as I know - and I would know. The app was submitted and approved.



There were some other comments about having more contests during the summer when our younger participants can attend with families. I agree. The dates of the Harris Hill contest were selected for this reason and so that our junior members would be able to attend and help with line. Having a dozen or more young pilots help with line adds a lot of good energy to a comp and is important to the future of our sport.



As for the weather in Elmira, it is exactly like many parts of continental Europe.



Harris Hill is a great place to fly with excellent facilities. I hope many of you can join us next summer and I would like to encourage all pilots to bring a young person from their club as crew.



Sean Murphy

XC

Thanks Sean.
Over 3 years ago, someone called Linda and asked if the 15's and Standards could be combined and held at Harris Hill. Since it was in the 15's rotation and Standards needed to be co hosted, no problems were seen for 2015.

My using the word "altered" could of been misleading, I meant usually the 15's and Standards are held separately. Not sure when Harris Hill started, sometime back in the 30's I believe, but during their conversation, a communication error might have occurred as it was thought a celebration might be occurring marking over 75 years of National contests being held at Harris Hill.

Whats been stated in another thread is true. These folks are trying to help out and are not trying to "**** anyone off".

Best, Tom.