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2015 18m Nationals



 
 
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  #11  
Old September 21st 14, 03:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
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Posts: 483
Default 2015 18m Nationals

On Sunday, 21 September 2014 08:15:09 UTC-6, Andy K wrote:
On Sunday, September 21, 2014 1:36:17 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:

Hobbs is west coast? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA






I already corrected this, just give it a break and concentrate on the fact that there are rules that were established and are not being followed and there is no explanation why exception after exception is being made.



I have no problems with exceptions as long as someone explains the reasoning behind it and it makes sense.



Sport, that is around a 1800+ mile drive for many of us in the Pacific NW. State College PA to Hobbs; that is a SHORTER drive!




Yes, by only 100 miles. I am not sure what State College PA has to do with this problem. By the way State College is not really North East so if you compare North West to North East it would be more like 2100 miles.



No need to go back and forth on this. As I said I would at least like to understand why we ended up with what we have. As Tim said this is not a well thought through schedule, certainly no one that can drive participation up.



AK


Andy, if you have not you should visit SSA site and read the Site Selection Page, SailPlane Racing--Other resources--Site selection. You will see that the criteria used is vague, i.e. what is the definition of 'zone'? There are no written rules that I am aware just many guidelines and conventions that have been used over the years/decades.

In checking the 2014 FAI Nationals rulebook this is found

2.3 The Application for Sanction (AFS) form should be submitted in time for review prior to the Fall SSA Board of Directors meeting in the
calendar year two years prior to the competition.

Again by using the term 'should' wiggle room is ensured.

We can ponder all we want but IMO contacting the selection committee will be the most expedient way to get answers.

Ron Gleason
  #12  
Old September 21st 14, 05:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy K
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Default 2015 18m Nationals

On Sunday, September 21, 2014 10:33:47 AM UTC-4, Larry Goddard wrote:
I don't know any specifics about the current situation. However, I do know that it is getting more and more difficult in getting groups to sponsor contests due to significant effort and expense. I suspect that the current situation is due to the fact that they are basically having to take whatever they can get.



Zero One


Larry, as far as I know Bermuda High submitted an offer to host 18 m Nationals. They also spent a huge amount of money a couple of years ago making improvements to their airfield to host heavy ballasted gliders. They cleared forest on the approach as well as cleared forest for the assembly area. They also acquired their own water tank this year as I am told.

They dedicated so much effort and financial resources to the cause of competition soaring it feels really bad they did not get to host the contest and get a little bit of money back.

AK
  #13  
Old September 22nd 14, 02:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Craig R.
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Default 2015 18m Nationals

My point was made.
This thread is somewhat of a rehash of an earlier thread about USA Nationals. Here is that thread. You made similar comments then.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/no$20contests$20for$202$20years$20in$20the$20west/rec.aviation.soaring/xbLG9wqkBjg/XHNlAU8-444J
However, the thread conversation lost some interest when the west coast pilots mentioned no west coast national contests in 2013. This was also discussed a year prior with similar lack of support for the west coast pilots.
One question I have (btw, not attacking, just interested), where in the US do you live that puts you 66 hours and 4380 miles from Hobbs / 6350 miles to Montague?
  #14  
Old September 22nd 14, 03:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim[_11_]
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Default 2015 18m Nationals

SNIP TT Wrote:
I have become very concerned about the overall quality of the US pilots going to the Worlds because we are selecting only from those that have the money and time to drive across the country each year or those that get lucky enough to have contests line up in their half of the country during selection periods.


TT -

I too am very concerned about the quality of the US Teams we are sending overseas. The US Team should be one of the top tier teams and not toward the bottom/middle of the score sheet. It is my opinion that if we continue to use the randomly sited US nationals as US Team selection venues we will continue to get sub-optimum results at WGC's.

While I am not in favor of making the process unnecessarily costly or time consuming if those we send are used to only local, short drive and less costly competition domestically, they are going to be in for quite a shock when they face the cost, complexity, and foreign-ness of going to many a non-North American WGC site.

I thought part of the commitment to making the US team was to make pilots expend the effort to fly in different locales and weather conditions so that they would be better rounded and prepared for the rigors of a WGC. If this effort requires a long-drive, then so be it. I do not like it, but I accept it as part of the "game" and it has made me a better pilot having gone through the rigors of the current system.

As far as East/West Nationals selecting US Teams, I would be very concerned about the qualities of the teams we send if Westerners only race in Western conditions and Easterners only race in Eastern conditions. This does not immediately strike me as sending well rounded pilots to WGC's. I know some top-notch flatland pilots who almost literally s--t bricks at the thought of a mountain site or the eastern ridge sites.

In addition to some of the criteria you are in favor of, I would love to add another one: site the selection nationals in any two year selection cycle at sites that roughly replicate the challenges of the WGC that is being selected for. Or better yet, come up with an appropriately sited "selection contest" that would be held over a two-year cycle. Maybe a selection contest where the top 10 rated pilots in each WGC class would be invited to compete for the team slots in terrain and weather conditions like they will face at the next WGC

For instance, the conditions found at Hobbs for Club Class Nationals in 2015, could hardly be more different from the Lithuanian conditions the US Club Class team will face in 2016. If team selection criteria were being considered, it would make much more sense for the 2015 Club Class Nationals to be sited somewhere East (i.e. Ceasar Creek perhaps?)

I am glad to see the Pan-American contest being organized for next year, just wish it was being held during the summer months when more could attend..


On this one, you are preaching to the choir in my case, as many contests seem to be increasingly creeping into the school year. For those who are unencumbered by the school year, good for you. For those of us who are so-encumbered, and who are probably among the more youthful demographic many of us say we long for in the sport, it puts a serious crimp in plans to compete.

Maybe we should just put all contests in central Kansas and make everyone (except the Kansans among us) feel the pain of the trip and flying in "foreign" conditions :-)

Thanks all for reading my thoughts,
Tim McAllister EY
  #15  
Old September 22nd 14, 09:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jim White[_3_]
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Default 2015 18m Nationals

Practising in the same conditions as expected in the worlds is very
important. A bit off track but...if you want to win the worlds you also
have to be good at working as a team. This mutual skill takes time to
develop and requires that both pilots going to the Worlds have flown
together a lot, and in top competition.

  #16  
Old September 22nd 14, 08:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
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Posts: 585
Default 2015 18m Nationals

On Sunday, September 21, 2014 9:58:45 PM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
My point was made.

This thread is somewhat of a rehash of an earlier thread about USA Nationals. Here is that thread. You made similar comments then.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/no$20contests$20for$202$20years$20in$20the$20west/rec.aviation.soaring/xbLG9wqkBjg/XHNlAU8-444J

However, the thread conversation lost some interest when the west coast pilots mentioned no west coast national contests in 2013. This was also discussed a year prior with similar lack of support for the west coast pilots.

One question I have (btw, not attacking, just interested), where in the US do you live that puts you 66 hours and 4380 miles from Hobbs / 6350 miles to Montague?


These distances were both ways. New Hampshire
  #17  
Old September 22nd 14, 08:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
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Posts: 585
Default 2015 18m Nationals

On Sunday, September 21, 2014 10:10:42 PM UTC-4, Tim wrote:
SNIP TT Wrote:

I have become very concerned about the overall quality of the US pilots going to the Worlds because we are selecting only from those that have the money and time to drive across the country each year or those that get lucky enough to have contests line up in their half of the country during selection periods.




TT -



I too am very concerned about the quality of the US Teams we are sending overseas. The US Team should be one of the top tier teams and not toward the bottom/middle of the score sheet. It is my opinion that if we continue to use the randomly sited US nationals as US Team selection venues we will continue to get sub-optimum results at WGC's.



While I am not in favor of making the process unnecessarily costly or time consuming if those we send are used to only local, short drive and less costly competition domestically, they are going to be in for quite a shock when they face the cost, complexity, and foreign-ness of going to many a non-North American WGC site.



I thought part of the commitment to making the US team was to make pilots expend the effort to fly in different locales and weather conditions so that they would be better rounded and prepared for the rigors of a WGC. If this effort requires a long-drive, then so be it. I do not like it, but I accept it as part of the "game" and it has made me a better pilot having gone through the rigors of the current system.



As far as East/West Nationals selecting US Teams, I would be very concerned about the qualities of the teams we send if Westerners only race in Western conditions and Easterners only race in Eastern conditions. This does not immediately strike me as sending well rounded pilots to WGC's. I know some top-notch flatland pilots who almost literally s--t bricks at the thought of a mountain site or the eastern ridge sites.



In addition to some of the criteria you are in favor of, I would love to add another one: site the selection nationals in any two year selection cycle at sites that roughly replicate the challenges of the WGC that is being selected for. Or better yet, come up with an appropriately sited "selection contest" that would be held over a two-year cycle. Maybe a selection contest where the top 10 rated pilots in each WGC class would be invited to compete for the team slots in terrain and weather conditions like they will face at the next WGC



For instance, the conditions found at Hobbs for Club Class Nationals in 2015, could hardly be more different from the Lithuanian conditions the US Club Class team will face in 2016. If team selection criteria were being considered, it would make much more sense for the 2015 Club Class Nationals to be sited somewhere East (i.e. Ceasar Creek perhaps?)



I am glad to see the Pan-American contest being organized for next year, just wish it was being held during the summer months when more could attend.




On this one, you are preaching to the choir in my case, as many contests seem to be increasingly creeping into the school year. For those who are unencumbered by the school year, good for you. For those of us who are so-encumbered, and who are probably among the more youthful demographic many of us say we long for in the sport, it puts a serious crimp in plans to compete..



Maybe we should just put all contests in central Kansas and make everyone (except the Kansans among us) feel the pain of the trip and flying in "foreign" conditions :-)



Thanks all for reading my thoughts,

Tim McAllister EY


Tim, There is more to Nationals than just selecting team members. Not everyone wants to go to the worlds.

Andrzej
  #18  
Old September 22nd 14, 10:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Posts: 351
Default 2015 18m Nationals

On Monday, September 22, 2014 1:08:31 AM UTC-7, Jim White wrote:
Practising in the same conditions as expected in the worlds is very

important. A bit off track but...if you want to win the worlds you also

have to be good at working as a team. This mutual skill takes time to

develop and requires that both pilots going to the Worlds have flown

together a lot, and in top competition.


US team is working well on team flying. And all the top pilots have hundreds of hours in all sorts of conditions. Northern Europe isn't that different from Midwestern US.

IMHO, lack of practice at the delicate gaggling tactics required at WGC is the most important thing the US team is missing. That's because we don't fly by world rules. And we don't fly by world rules because we don't want to turn US contests into mass land out affairs where the few who still come ends up buying motors and bringing full time crew as they do in Europe.

And playing the start roulette gaggle game isn't a lot of fun. Much of the competition for contests in the US is with the crowd who wants to fly OLC. Run euro-contests in the US, and I bet a large number abandon contests and just fly OLC. It's bad enough to wait for the tows and start to open, but if you've got to stick to some huge gaggle and fly right through the thunderstorm, it will get old fast. Tough nut to crack.

I hope all who bemoan the lack of US practice under world conditions, and how we should practice under world rules will show up for Sarah's pan-Americans.

John Cochrane
  #19  
Old September 22nd 14, 10:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Default 2015 18m Nationals

Oh, and BTW, everyone complaining about the schedule, the RC is watching. Expect a call to volunteer for the site selection committee, a thankless task if there ever was one!

John Cochrane
  #20  
Old September 22nd 14, 11:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
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Posts: 585
Default 2015 18m Nationals

On Monday, September 22, 2014 5:51:15 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
Oh, and BTW, everyone complaining about the schedule, the RC is watching. Expect a call to volunteer for the site selection committee, a thankless task if there ever was one!



John Cochrane

Waiting for the call...
 




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