O2 Concentrator instead of O2 tank

Tony writes:

Would you care to explain how the Apollo experience, with very fit men
doing well on 4.8 psi PP O2 is in any way related to my assertion that
you, or the general population, would have difficulty surviving in a
pure oxygen atmosphere of 3 psia?

Fitness has no effect on susceptibility to altitude sickness and
hypoxia. Adaptations are slow to occur and readily lost and rarely
practical, even for astronauts. However, a pure oxygen atmosphere at
4.8 psi apparently works just fine, for anyone in normal health.

The Apollo spacecraft were regulated to between 4.8 and 5.0 psi,
roughly, as I recall. Spacesuits were set to even lower pressures,
around 3.8 psi.

--
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On Dec 3, 6:02 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Tony writes:
Would you care to explain how the Apollo experience, with very fit men
doing well on 4.8 psi PP O2 is in any way related to my assertion that
you, or the general population, would have difficulty surviving in a
pure oxygen atmosphere of 3 psia?



Fitness has no effect on susceptibility to altitude sickness and
hypoxia. Adaptations are slow to occur and readily lost and rarely
practical, even for astronauts. However, a pure oxygen atmosphere at
4.8 psi apparently works just fine, for anyone in normal health.

Fitness has no effect?? For someone who writes well enough to sometimes
sound credible, you ruin it all by making statements like that.

Now, almost 5 psia of O2 is a long way from 3 psia -- which was my
statement.

Fitness, with good O2 exchange, means nearly EVERYHTHING with respect
to operating in low oxygen environments.

I fully accept that someone who isn't rated can make meaningful
contributions to this group, but don't continue to make statements that
make others question your credibility, it makes others question your
valid statements.

Oh well, I'm outta here.





The Apollo spacecraft were regulated to between 4.8 and 5.0 psi,
roughly, as I recall. Spacesuits were set to even lower pressures,
around 3.8 psi.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Chris W" wrote in message
news
Why are we having this argument?

Because this is Usenet. We (and I include myself) have a pathological need
to point out the errors in even the most obviously ignorant post.

That said, I use the term "ignorant" in only the purest sense of the word,
and it's possible that Bill Denton may actually learn something. There's no
need for his ignorance to be perpetual, nor is it clear to me that we are
really so much arguing about this as we are working through one person's
misunderstandings.

Is it not true that people use concentrators at altitude in unpressurized
planes and they don't pass out? If that is the case, and it is my
understanding that it is, then they must work. So what is the argument
about?

Knowing something works is not necessarily the same as understanding why or
how it works. To draw a parallel, consider the question glide angle (and by
extension, distance). It's somewhat non-intuitive to understand that glide
angle is constant as weight varies, and that the only thing that weight
changes is the speed at which the best glide angle occurs. You might
witness an "argument" as a person struggles through understanding the why
and how of that.

I should know...I've been there, on the ignorant side of that "argument".
Of course, just when I thought I had it all figured out, someone came
along and explained to me that it turns out that glide angle *is* affected
to a small degree by weight. Just not to the degree one might naively
assume.

Anyway, given that the question involves pressures, volumes, open systems,
closed systems, and physiology, it's not too surprising that at least one
person has formed the wrong intuitive idea of the situation. Hopefully, we
can just "argue" the truth into him.

Pete

tom wrote:
Does anyone use an oxygen concentrator to supply pilot and passengers
in a light plane flying over 14000 feet? A quick google did not turn
up anything but home units and a recent ruling that they can be used on
commercial airlines, but I did not find anything about their use on
private planes.

They don't require more than about 100 watts, so an aircraft electrical
system could keep them going as long as the engine was running.
Internal batteries would keep it alive in an emergency.

Seems like a nice solution to elimination of messing with refilling
tanks.

tom

Hi Tom,

I'm a pilot and I sell concentrators. I'm not too sure they will work
well at 14000 feet. The new (expensive) little ones are pretty
marginal at best.


tom wrote:
Does anyone use an oxygen concentrator to supply pilot and passengers
in a light plane flying over 14000 feet? A quick google did not turn
up anything but home units and a recent ruling that they can be used on
commercial airlines, but I did not find anything about their use on
private planes.

They don't require more than about 100 watts, so an aircraft electrical
system could keep them going as long as the engine was running.
Internal batteries would keep it alive in an emergency.

Seems like a nice solution to elimination of messing with refilling
tanks.

tom

"Vaughn Simon" wrote

She has a lung problem and we are lucky to live at sea level.

I'm glad you are able to deal with it satisfactorily.
--
Jim in NC

Tony writes:

Fitness has no effect??

Yes.

For someone who writes well enough to sometimes
sound credible, you ruin it all by making statements like that.

I'm sorry if it sounds incredible. I did the research, and that was
the result.

Fitness, with good O2 exchange, means nearly EVERYHTHING with respect
to operating in low oxygen environments.

No, it does not. You can be in good health, or great health, but it
doesn't make any difference. Even Olympic champions will yield to
altitude sickness just as often as normal people, and their
vulnerability is just as unpredictable.

Someone who is truly in poor health with respiratory, cardiac, or some
other problems may be more sensitive to hypoxia at altitude, but being
in robust health and physically fit doesn't help. In fact, many of
these problems don't hurt, either, except insofar as they make the
effects of hypoxia more dangerous.

I fully accept that someone who isn't rated can make meaningful
contributions to this group, but don't continue to make statements that
make others question your credibility, it makes others question your
valid statements.

Others can do the same research I do, and they can reach the same
conclusions. Or they can spend their time on personal attacks. The
former is a learning experience; the latter is a waste of time,
especially when I'm the target.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

GomezAddams wrote:
Hi Tom,

I'm a pilot and I sell concentrators. I'm not too sure they will work
well at 14000 feet. The new (expensive) little ones are pretty
marginal at best.

There have been tests of portable units and the major issue with
them going up in altitude is not that they don't work, but they
get a lot because the compressor works harder.

There have been tests of portable units and the major issue with
them going up in altitude is not that they don't work, but they
get a lot because the compressor works harder.

That is really an interesting point. Prior to this thread--I had never
given any thought to the possibility of anyone using a portable concentrator
in the cabin of an aircraft, as my interest had been to eliminate the use of
refillable bottles for normal use. I had simply presumed that the
compressor(s) would be driven directly by the engine(s) and that any
necessary intercooling would be provided prior to the concentrator unit; or
alternatively that a purpose build self contained unit would be installed.
Therefore, this thread has been something of a revelation.

Peter

On 1 Dec 2006 22:28:10 -0800, "tom" wrote:

Does anyone use an oxygen concentrator to supply pilot and passengers
in a light plane flying over 14000 feet? A quick google did not turn
up anything but home units and a recent ruling that they can be used on
commercial airlines, but I did not find anything about their use on
private planes.

They don't require more than about 100 watts, so an aircraft electrical
system could keep them going as long as the engine was running.
Internal batteries would keep it alive in an emergency.

Changing subjects slightly - what kind of maintenance is required on
an oxygen concentrator? Does the zeolite need to be replaced every so
often? I scanned the webpages of a few manufacturers, and it appears
to be a relatively maintenance free product.

Anyway, it seems an interesting concept to use an O2 concentrator vs
bottle in the plane.