Myth: 1 G barrel rolls are impossible.

On 2007-06-12 10:43:17 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip said:

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:2007061201260116807-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-12 01:11:04 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:2007061201080016807-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-12 00:14:09 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:2007061200011427544-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-11 23:50:07 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:200706112344078930-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-11 23:27:09 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote;

Got a few hours in the 650 way back when. Man, were those
pedals wide apart!! :-))

Yes, good airplane for exploring aerobatics for th eneophyte,
though. Unburstable, except for that prop thing.

That's what got Rollie Cole. Shame.
I miss the old days. I knew a lot of these people up close and
personal.Counting the people we knew on the jet teams and the
rest from the demonstration community, my wife and I have lost
32 friends through the years to low altitude acro
Dudley

Yes. i've lost a few as well. Somehow I managed to survie it
though!

I don't even like doing them at altitude so much these days.
Except for smooth stuff. A freind of mine has just got a Yak 52
and is going nuts in it doing flat spins and what have you..
Gives me a headache just looking at him!

That's weird. I have a friend in Pa. in the financial business
who's into Yaks as well. (Gotta be careful saying this or PETA
will be on my ass here :-)
He has a 52 now and has just bought an 11. I believe he's trying
to put a P&W in the 11 as we speak.
Got another friend in Jersey who's LOA on Mig 21's.
I think the Russians might be invading after all :-)

I'd say we might have some mutual acquantences.


Bertie

Wouldn't surprise me a bit, but fear not if so. Should the Bunyip
become known, his secret is safe and shall remain so.
For your interest, the two people are Seligman and Sutton.

No, don't know them myself, but I think one had A CJ 6 ferried from
Cal a few years ago?

Also, i reckon you also knew a Pinto/ F86 driver that bit off more
than he could chew?

Steve and I knew each other quite well many years ago when he was a
partner in the old Valley Forge Airport in Pa. His partner had a
French wife you had to see to believe. If I remember right (and who
could forget her..her name was Yvette. :-)

Yeah, met her. I worked for him a looong time ago.

God, that goes WAY back. :-))
I used to fly with Alex Perez if you remember him from Valley Forge.
we got drunk together one night over at the VF Country Club, went out
to the end of the runway and drove copper nails into a huge tree right
in the middle of the approach path. That tree had been driving us all
nuts for a long time :-)
Not sure if the tree died or was cut down when the airport was sold later on.
Alex was killed off in a war and I had moved on to bigger things.
Steve was still the FBO there when I left.

Steve had enough patents to choke a horse, including the paraglider
and the Sentinel just to name two. He made a ton of money in his life.
I take it you knew him as well.


Yeah. Not real well, just worked for him.

I don't really know what happened to the 86 the day he went in over in
Jersey and I can't remember if the bird had an Orenda in it or a J47.


Well, i know the FAA guy who had refused to sign him off for the airshow
at 7MY. He only had the thing a couple of weeks and the guy who was
supposed to sign him off refused him a display ticket for an airshow
that weekend on the basis he would probably kill himself even just
trying to land it there (it's less than 3,000 feet long) . He decided to
land there and static display it and land the day before. didn't like
the look of the approach and the engine quit on the go around.

If I remember right, Steve's Sabre was a Sabre 6. They extended the
leading edges and replaced the LE Slats on the 6. He might have gotten
it into a 3000 ft. strip behind the curve , but getting it out again
would have been a whole new ball game. You over rotate the 86 on
takeoff and you can easily pull it into drag rise. If you do that, the
damn thing will just sit there on the runway and it's the California
Ice Cream Parlor all over again.
I would think twice about taking an 86 out of a 3K strip. The FAA LOA
(I'm assuming he was LOA quald in the Sabre but with the FAA who knows
:-) guy was probably right.

He was kind of famous for things like that. I saw him do a low pass in
that Pinto and pull up vertically and disappear at that very same
airport. He must have been doing 350 down the runway. Not too clever at
a busy field like that. He must have run out of gas in that Stallion
about a dozen times hauling jumpers and his sense around the ramp was
legendary. He nearly blew over a Luscombe I had with that Pinto one day.
Still , he was one clever boy. He had an RC Convair Pogo back in the
'70s when nobody did that kind of thing. All little mechanical
stabilising gyros in it he had made himself. And I can't imagine anyone
else geting the 262 thing going like he did.
BTW, that was the very first airplane I ever sat in when I was all of
5..
The 262 project is indeed something else. I think he had to use the old
bird at Willow Grove for a template, and the deal as we heard it anyway
was that he had to restore it to museum quality. I don't know where
that airplane is today but I'll bet it looks better than it did the
last time I saw it sitting these by the fence at WG :-)
Dudley



Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:2007061214475016807-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-12 10:43:17 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:2007061201260116807-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-12 01:11:04 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:2007061201080016807-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-12 00:14:09 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:2007061200011427544-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-11 23:50:07 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:200706112344078930-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-11 23:27:09 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote;

Got a few hours in the 650 way back when. Man, were those
pedals wide apart!! :-))

Yes, good airplane for exploring aerobatics for th eneophyte,
though. Unburstable, except for that prop thing.

That's what got Rollie Cole. Shame.
I miss the old days. I knew a lot of these people up close and
personal.Counting the people we knew on the jet teams and the
rest from the demonstration community, my wife and I have lost
32 friends through the years to low altitude acro
Dudley

Yes. i've lost a few as well. Somehow I managed to survie it
though!

I don't even like doing them at altitude so much these days.
Except for smooth stuff. A freind of mine has just got a Yak 52
and is going nuts in it doing flat spins and what have you..
Gives me a headache just looking at him!

That's weird. I have a friend in Pa. in the financial business
who's into Yaks as well. (Gotta be careful saying this or PETA
will be on my ass here :-)
He has a 52 now and has just bought an 11. I believe he's trying
to put a P&W in the 11 as we speak.
Got another friend in Jersey who's LOA on Mig 21's.
I think the Russians might be invading after all :-)

I'd say we might have some mutual acquantences.


Bertie

Wouldn't surprise me a bit, but fear not if so. Should the Bunyip
become known, his secret is safe and shall remain so.
For your interest, the two people are Seligman and Sutton.

No, don't know them myself, but I think one had A CJ 6 ferried from
Cal a few years ago?

Also, i reckon you also knew a Pinto/ F86 driver that bit off more
than he could chew?

Steve and I knew each other quite well many years ago when he was a
partner in the old Valley Forge Airport in Pa. His partner had a
French wife you had to see to believe. If I remember right (and who
could forget her..her name was Yvette. :-)

Yeah, met her. I worked for him a looong time ago.

God, that goes WAY back. :-))
I used to fly with Alex Perez if you remember him from Valley Forge.
we got drunk together one night over at the VF Country Club, went out
to the end of the runway and drove copper nails into a huge tree right
in the middle of the approach path. That tree had been driving us all
nuts for a long time :-)
Not sure if the tree died or was cut down when the airport was sold
later on. Alex was killed off in a war and I had moved on to bigger
things. Steve was still the FBO there when I left.

No, don't know Alex. Never was waround that part of the world much, except
I did have an airplane at Toughkenemon (sp?) for a while and did know Lex &
John Dupont. imagine my surprise to see John on CNN one morning! Actually,
I wasn't that surprised.. Also was in PGC with Steven for a while, but he
wouldn't know me from Adam.



If I remember right, Steve's Sabre was a Sabre 6. They extended the
leading edges and replaced the LE Slats on the 6. He might have gotten
it into a 3000 ft. strip behind the curve , but getting it out again
would have been a whole new ball game. You over rotate the 86 on
takeoff and you can easily pull it into drag rise. If you do that, the
damn thing will just sit there on the runway and it's the California
Ice Cream Parlor all over again.
I would think twice about taking an 86 out of a 3K strip. The FAA LOA
(I'm assuming he was LOA quald in the Sabre but with the FAA who knows
:-) guy was probably right.

Oh yeah. The FAA guy was a poacher turned gamekeeper and knew what he was
talking about.



The 262 project is indeed something else. I think he had to use the
old bird at Willow Grove for a template, and the deal as we heard it
anyway was that he had to restore it to museum quality. I don't know
where that airplane is today but I'll bet it looks better than it did
the last time I saw it sitting these by the fence at WG :-)
Dudley


Yeah, ythat's right. That's the one I sat in. That was years after I'd seen
him last, though. I don't know if they got the airplane back to the navy or
not.

I used to work for Albie, btw... most of my flying in tht area was at Van
Sant, though..


those were the days..





Bertie

On 2007-06-12 15:35:34 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip said:


Oh yeah. The FAA guy was a poacher turned gamekeeper and knew what he was
talking about.

I see you've dealt with them as well :-)))





I used to work for Albie, btw... most of my flying in tht area was at Van
Sant, though..


those were the days..

God, for a second there I thought I might have figured out who you
were. I thought for a moment you might be Bert Size from HiLine
Montgomeryville Airport. Ed Size was his father and ran Hi Line. I used
to instruct there with Bert. That would mean you and I had actually
worked and flown together at one time. Man, now THAT would be a small
world!!!!
The gang from Hi Line would fly up to Van Sant and just sit around on
the grass shooting the pervibal bull. Van Sant was a great little field
for just playing around with airplanes as I'm sure you know.
You're right, those days were the most fun you could have with your
clothes on and we'll never see the likes of them again I'm afraid.
Dudley






Bertie

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 22:24:02 -0000, Jim Logajan
wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:
Jim Logajan writes:

Most everyone agrees that keeping the coffee in the cup is possible.
What some people don't seem to believe is possible is that the force
felt by the pilot (or tea/coffee) can be 1 gee during the entire
roll. They believe it has to vary during the roll. I'm hesitant to
name names. ;-)

It has to vary during the roll, because the constant 1 G acceleration
due to gravity does not change. The net acceleration of the aircraft
must always be at least one G in consequence, and if the aircraft
begins a climb or ends a descent, it _must_ be greater than +1.0 G.

Sigh. Yes, the force that is felt is greater then one g-force at the
beginning and end of the maneuver. But that is not the case "during the
roll" itself. Again, as in the other post of yours I responded to, you
appear to be confusing force and acceleration.

Not a serious confusion, as force and acceleration are stricly
proportional (F=mA) as long as the mass of the object (plane) is not
changing. Over the time intervals involved, not enough fuel is burned
to significantly change the mass. Now, if the pilot scares the s--t
out of himself during the manouver, then the proportionality might not
hold up. :-)
---
Jay (remove dashes for legal email address)

Dudley Henriques wrote
Steve and I knew each other quite well many years ago when he was a
partner in the old Valley Forge Airport in Pa. His partner had a
French wife you had to see to believe. If I remember right (and who
could forget her..her name was Yvette. :-)

That would have been Norm Hortman....a TWA B-747 Captain, and Yvette
was a former TWA Flight Attendant. Norm would later own the old 3M
airport just north of Philly. He and Yvette had a Part 141 Certificate
and School. I got my CFI/CFII there about 3-4 years after joining
PanAm.

Norm would fly to JFK for his TWA flights in an Aztec. Yvette became an
ATP flying him back and forth. She managed the Part 141 School and was
a real "BITCH".

Some years later, Norm bought the farm when the battery in the Aztec
broke loose in IMC turbulent conditions and started an inflight fire.

Norm was one of the original American AA-1 Yankee distributors and I
was doing some part time work for one of his dealers across the river
at the Burlington, Co. airport. I still have a picture of Norm and myself
and a AA-1.

Bob Moore

On 06/12/07 13:01, Jay Somerset wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 22:24:02 -0000, Jim Logajan
wrote:

[ snip ]


Sigh. Yes, the force that is felt is greater then one g-force at the
beginning and end of the maneuver. But that is not the case "during the
roll" itself. Again, as in the other post of yours I responded to, you
appear to be confusing force and acceleration.

Not a serious confusion, as force and acceleration are stricly
proportional (F=mA) as long as the mass of the object (plane) is not
changing. Over the time intervals involved, not enough fuel is burned
to significantly change the mass. Now, if the pilot scares the s--t
out of himself during the manouver, then the proportionality might not
hold up. :-)

Well, unless the pilot had his arse hanging out the window at the time,
I think there's still no change in overall mass ;-)

---
Jay (remove dashes for legal email address)

By the way, if you're trying to make a signature line, you need the
first line to be dash dash space, not dash dash dash - FYI.

On 2007-06-12 16:06:36 -0400, Bob Moore said:

Dudley Henriques wrote
Steve and I knew each other quite well many years ago when he was a
partner in the old Valley Forge Airport in Pa. His partner had a
French wife you had to see to believe. If I remember right (and who
could forget her..her name was Yvette. :-)

That would have been Norm Hortman....a TWA B-747 Captain, and Yvette
was a former TWA Flight Attendant. Norm would later own the old 3M
airport just north of Philly. He and Yvette had a Part 141 Certificate
and School. I got my CFI/CFII there about 3-4 years after joining
PanAm.

Norm would fly to JFK for his TWA flights in an Aztec. Yvette became an
ATP flying him back and forth. She managed the Part 141 School and was
a real "BITCH".

Some years later, Norm bought the farm when the battery in the Aztec
broke loose in IMC turbulent conditions and started an inflight fire.

Norm was one of the original American AA-1 Yankee distributors and I
was doing some part time work for one of his dealers across the river
at the Burlington, Co. airport. I still have a picture of Norm and myself
and a AA-1.

Bob Moore

I remember the Hortman's well, and you and I are for once in complete
agreement on Mrs. Hortman :-) Her "attitude" was a legend in Pa.
I instructed over at Burlington County when it was Cameron Field. At
that time it was owned by Dave and Phil Cohen who also owned an
ornamental iron works factory if I remember right. The guy I worked for
at Cameron was a real character named Orville Jenkins.
Between Orville going off flying a Goose all the time and me getting
stuck with all the students and dodging parachutes all day long, life
was interesting to say the least.
Do you remember Bill Whitsell from over at Flying W or Freddy Tonyas.
Fred grabbed my AT6 one evening over at Clementon and buzzed the
Silverlake Inn. They got the number and it took me two days to convince
the fuzz it wasn't me. Fred I believe ended up a Captain for United,
and Whitesell was an Eastern Captain who worked a great deal on his
medical insurance I think. Anyway, the money to build Flying W had to
come from somewhere :-)
Tonyas at last look was living in Whitsells house over at Flying W, and
the Cohens had turnedCameron Field into an industrial park which I
believe is not Burlington County Airport.
But the guy who was Snyder's partner with the wife named Yvette was
another guy. I just can't remember his name off the top of my head but
it definately wasn't Hortman and was another Yvette.
Dudley Henriques

On 2007-06-12 16:23:35 -0400, Dudley Henriques said:

On 2007-06-12 16:06:36 -0400, Bob Moore said:

the Cohens had turnedCameron Field into an industrial park which I
believe is not Burlington County Airport.

Should read is NOW Burlington County Airport.

Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote
Do you remember Bill Whitsell from over at Flying W

Yes...Bill wanted to buy his son an airplane and asked me to
demonstrate the Yankee to him. Unfortunately, it was fully
fueled. The stall warning started at liftoff and continued
until the wheels were back on the ground 5-10 min. later. To
say that Bill was somewhat large is a gross understatement.
He immediately decided not to buy a Yankee.

Bob Moore

Dudley Henriques wrote

Should read is NOW Burlington County Airport.

Google Earth says that it is "South Jersey Regional".

Bob