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#11
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Runway incursions
C Gattman wrote:
At a towered airport, walking onto an active taxiway is considered a runway incursion. No it isn't. A runway incursion is "any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take off of aircraft." At the same airport, taxiing onto an active taxiway without clearance is a runway incursion. Only if it's been designated for the landing and take off of aircraft. |
#12
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Runway incursions
On Sep 9, 3:03*pm, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote: C Gattman wrote: At a towered airport, walking onto an active taxiway is considered a runway incursion. No it isn't. *A runway incursion is Mr. McNicoll, I was standing next to an FAA official guest from the Seattle FSDO after he had just given a CFI seminar on teaching runway incursion avoidance when this happened. I'm quoting official FAA sources, firsthand. Your sourceless contradiction of this puts readers of this forum who fly at risk by providing faulty and bad information, so I am compelled to respond. I'm trying to tell you that I witnessed the FAA Runway Safety official call the tower and then turn to tell me that ATC had reported TWO runway incursions: One for a pedestrian on the taxiway, and another for an airplane that roamed back onto Alpha without clearance. So, if you have something in an official context that you'd like to share, do so. According to airlinesafety.com, "The FAA defines a runway incursion as Any occurrence at an airport involving an aircraft, vehicle, person, or object on the ground that creates a collision hazard or results in loss of separation with an aircraft taking off, intending to take off, landing, or intending to land." Strictly speaking, an incursion onto a taxiway is a taxiway incursion. But, straight from the horse's mouth, the result is the same. There are only three sources to which they assign blame and unless it's ATC's fault or you're a pedestrian, the weight of the investigation falls on the pilot of the aircraft. I strongly encourage you to discuss this with your local FSDO directly. If you walk, drive or operate your aircraft on a taxiway at a towered airport, without clearance, your opinion of the what a runway incursion is won't prevent them from taking action against you. -chris Commercial Pilot, Certified Flight Instructor Troutdale, Oregon |
#13
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Runway incursions
C Gattman wrote:
On Sep 9, 3:03 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: C Gattman wrote: At a towered airport, walking onto an active taxiway is considered a runway incursion. No it isn't. A runway incursion is Mr. McNicoll, I was standing next to an FAA official guest from the Seattle FSDO after he had just given a CFI seminar on teaching runway incursion avoidance when this happened. I'm quoting official FAA sources, firsthand. Your sourceless contradiction of this puts readers of this forum who fly at risk by providing faulty and bad information, so I am compelled to respond. I'm trying to tell you that I witnessed the FAA Runway Safety official call the tower and then turn to tell me that ATC had reported TWO runway incursions: One for a pedestrian on the taxiway, and another for an airplane that roamed back onto Alpha without clearance. So, if you have something in an official context that you'd like to share, do so. According to airlinesafety.com, "The FAA defines a runway incursion as Any occurrence at an airport involving an aircraft, vehicle, person, or object on the ground that creates a collision hazard or results in loss of separation with an aircraft taking off, intending to take off, landing, or intending to land." Strictly speaking, an incursion onto a taxiway is a taxiway incursion. But, straight from the horse's mouth, the result is the same. There are only three sources to which they assign blame and unless it's ATC's fault or you're a pedestrian, the weight of the investigation falls on the pilot of the aircraft. I strongly encourage you to discuss this with your local FSDO directly. If you walk, drive or operate your aircraft on a taxiway at a towered airport, without clearance, your opinion of the what a runway incursion is won't prevent them from taking action against you. -chris Commercial Pilot, Certified Flight Instructor Troutdale, Oregon Mr. Gattman, I did not offer an opinion. FAA Notice N JO 7050.2 Effective October 1, 2007, the FAA Administrator approved the use of the following ICAO definition of runway incursion: "Any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take-off of aircraft" http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...N%207050.2.pdf I strongly encourage you to discuss this with your FAA official guest from the Seattle FSDO that gave that CFI seminar and bring him up to speed. |
#14
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Runway incursions
On Sep 15, 8:35*pm, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote: "Any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take-off of aircraft" http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...N%207050.2.pdf I strongly encourage you to discuss this with your FAA official guest from the Seattle FSDO that gave that CFI seminar and bring him up to speed. I'll be sure to tell him some guy on the internet said he was wrong, after ATC--totally different people that the guest--filed two runway incursion reports for taxiway incursions. Enter a taxiway or other "protected area" at a towered airport without clearance, it's an incursion. I've seen it happen, confirmed that it was reported, and discussed it with the FAA after their Runway Incursion seminar. I don't care what you read on the internet. Readers are free to form their own opinions and choose their own safety practices. I'm just telling people what happened. -c |
#15
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Runway incursions
On Sep 16, 4:22*am, C Gattman wrote:
Enter a taxiway or other "protected area" at a towered airport without clearance, it's an incursion. I've seen it happen, confirmed that it was reported, and discussed it with the FAA after their Runway Incursion seminar. *I don't care what you read on the internet. If your FAA source says that an incorrect entry on a taxiway is defined as a runway incursion, surely you can find it on the FAA website to back up his opinion. Steven and I gave you the FAA source "read on the internet" surely you can reciprocate? http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/ as a reminder. Otherwise, why would your word be of higher probative value then the FAA website? |
#16
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Runway incursions
On Sep 16, 6:05*am, BeechSundowner wrote:
Steven and I gave you the FAA source "read on the internet" *surely you can reciprocate? *http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/as a reminder. *Otherwise, why would your word be of higher probative value then the FAA website? Because I'm an instructor and I brought it up on the student forum I feel obliged to "reciprocate" and clarify for other readers. Apparently, telling you what I saw happen has no value to you so clearly you don't respect my word. I'm not out here to engage in some sort of penis-measuring contest with a couple of usenet know-it-alls, if that's what this is going to turn into. All current US pilots should be familiar with the NonMovement Area Boundary. (AIM 2-3-6 c.) It's a solid yellow line with a broken yellow line next to it. ." The NMAB "delineates movement area under control of ATCT, from non- movement area." According to the AIM, "These markings delineate the movement area, ie, AREA UNDER AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL" [emphasis mine] Specifically, per AC 150/340-18D :Standards for Airport Sign Systems" and AC 150/5340-1J "Standards for Airport Markings", the NMAB is "located on the boundary between movement and non-movement area" and it's located to unsure wing clearance for taxiing aircraft. Additional sources: AC-90-67 "Light Signals from the Control Tower for Ground Vehicles, Equipment, an Personnel" At KTTD, the Movement Area Boundary separates the Alpha and Bravo taxiways from the parking areas, and according to Troutdale Tower (Class D), it's a violation to cross it. It's been that way at least since I started flying there in 1989. I hope I have established clearly what a movement area is, and what the boundary looks like. The Pilot Guide to Airport Signs and Markings which is produced by the FAA and available from the FAA Office of Runway Safety in Renton, WA, says in bold, red, italicized letters: "ATC permission is ALWAYS required to cross from the solid side to the dashed side." [emphasis theirs] This source is freely available as a full-color quick reference card that fits in the approach plate book. I'm not going to post her e-mail address but I can post the mailing address if you want. You might also order "A Pilot's Guide to Surface Operations", "Airfield Procedures for Vehicles and Pedestrians" (it's a poster) and the "Safe Surface Operations" CD-ROM. I bet there isn't a CFI out here who hasn't taught students that you need to get tower clearance before you cross the Non Movement Area Boundary onto the taxiway. Finally, from your own source: http://www.faa.gov/aso/runwaysafety/Docs/Training.ppt defines the following: " * Movement Area – Runways, taxiways, and other areas of an airport which are used for taxiing, or hover taxiing, air taxiing, takeoff, and landing of aircraft, exclusive of loading ramps and aircraft parking areas. [Read that again.] * Runway Incursion – Any occurrence at an airport involving an aircraft, vehicle, person, or object on the ground that creates a collision hazard or results in a loss of separation with an aircraft taking off, intending to take off, landing, or intending to land." I trust all of this has sufficient "probative value" to simply reinforce my observation that two runway incursions were reported by KTTD ATC to Seattle when a pedestrian (one) and an aircraft (two) entered the Alpha Taxiway without clearance. It's not like I'm claiming to have seen a flying saucer. I have the FAA rep's business card but I'm certainly not about to post it here. As for what's on the FAA website, I haven't found an official definition of "holding out", but don't let them catch you doing it. You don't want to make all of your aeronautical decisions based solely on what you read on the FAA website. -c Commercial Pilot, CFI. KTTD |
#17
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Runway incursions
C Gattman wrote:
I'll be sure to tell him some guy on the internet said he was wrong, after ATC--totally different people that the guest--filed two runway incursion reports for taxiway incursions. Why don't you tell him some guy on the internet posted verifiable documentation that proved him wrong? Wouldn't that be more beneficial? Then he might stop providing CFIs with incorrect information and they wouldn't be passing it on to their students or posting it on the internet. Enter a taxiway or other "protected area" at a towered airport without clearance, it's an incursion. It's a runway incursion only if that other "protected area" is designated for the landing and take-off of aircraft, aka a runway. Do you understand that? I've seen it happen, confirmed that it was reported, and discussed it with the FAA after their Runway Incursion seminar. It's likely you misunderstood what you saw and heard. I don't care what you read on the internet. No? You wrote, "So, if you have something in an official context that you'd like to share, do so." I did exactly that, and now you say you don't care. I'm hurt! Readers are free to form their own opinions and choose their own safety practices. Yes, your memories versus verifiable, definitive FAA documents. I know which way that will go. I'm just telling people what happened. As best you can. |
#18
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Runway incursions
C Gattman wrote:
* Runway Incursion – Any occurrence at an airport involving an aircraft, vehicle, person, or object on the ground that creates a collision hazard or results in a loss of separation with an aircraft taking off, intending to take off, landing, or intending to land." Actually, a "Runway Incursion" is defined as "Any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take-off of aircraft." I trust all of this has sufficient "probative value" to simply reinforce my observation that two runway incursions were reported by KTTD ATC to Seattle when a pedestrian (one) and an aircraft (two) entered the Alpha Taxiway without clearance. It doesn't. As for what's on the FAA website, I haven't found an official definition of "holding out", but don't let them catch you doing it. You don't want to make all of your aeronautical decisions based solely on what you read on the FAA website. Or from what a CFI that's long on ego and short on knowledge posts on the internet. |
#19
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Runway incursions
On 09/16/09 12:33, C Gattman wrote:
* Runway Incursion – Any occurrence at an airport involving an aircraft, vehicle, person, or object on the ground that creates a collision hazard or results in a loss of separation with an aircraft taking off, intending to take off, landing, or intending to land." -c Commercial Pilot, CFI. KTTD Chris, While reading this thread, I wonder if it's possible that folks are not seeing eye to eye on what constitutes: "... with an aircraft taking off, intending to take off, landing, or intending to land." In that some believe operating on the taxiway on the way to the runway is included in this, while some others think that it is not? I know that at a towered airport, you must have a clearance before you may operate on the taxiway. I don't think anyone is trying to dispute that. But I think the two conversations are focusing on different aspects of the issue, which is causing some confusion. -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#20
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Runway incursions
Mark Hansen wrote:
I know that at a towered airport, you must have a clearance before you may operate on the taxiway. I don't think anyone is trying to dispute that. But I think the two conversations are focusing on different aspects of the issue, which is causing some confusion. A clearance is required to operate on a taxiway, operating on a taxiway without a clearance does NOT constitute a runway incursion. |
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