What First Glider to own?

On 12/3/2010 10:28 AM, jb92563 wrote:
There are a few Experimental Gliders with great performance bang for
the buck and are great performers.

Snip...

The Schreder HP Experimentals are a great buy. I bought my 40+ year
old HP-11 for $6,000 with a good trailer.
It's had 9 owners and they have completed Diamonds etc in them.
Its all metal and I leave it outside rigged in the blistering CA sun
and occasional rain, year round and its virtually maintenance free. L/
D ~37:1

Its durable and learning Flaps is easy and less scary than you have
heard and gives you capabilities to exceed your best expectations,
with flap assisted slow thermalling and reflex flaps for top end
speed. and full flaps to get in to incredibly small postage stamp
sized fields. I now prefer flaps to spoilers alone and I think most
people would too if they gave it a try.

"I'll second the above." Usta own/fly an HP-14, transitioned into 'flapped
high performance' ships from a 1-26 w. ~125 total PIC hours w/o problems (the
HP being the 2nd of 3 flaps-only 'higher performance types' ever self-owned).

Regardless of what you eventually decide, FWIW, just about *all* of the advice
you've received in this thread has merit, IMHO. Yet another fascinating aspect
of this wonderful sporting activity!

Have fun - searching and soaring!

Regards,
Bob W.

Dont forget the running costs. Insurance is usually related to hull value.
If you go glass remember not all gell coats last the same. In our club we
have several Discus's where the gell coat needed replacing after about
15yrs. However out Grob 102 mkIIIs are still fine after about 30yrs.
Other gliders in your bracket include DG100/200, ASw19, std cirrus,
Mosquito. Dont like the corrosion problems with aluminum glider. They are
usually hidden.

Nigel

On Dec 4, 8:32*am, Nigel Pocock wrote:
Dont forget the running costs. Insurance is usually related to hull value..
If you go glass remember not all gell coats last the same. In our club we
have several Discus's where the gell coat needed replacing after about
15yrs. However out Grob 102 mkIIIs are still fine after about 30yrs.
Other gliders in your bracket include DG100/200, ASw19, std cirrus,
Mosquito. Dont like the corrosion problems with aluminum glider. They are
usually hidden.

Nigel

Insurance doesn't rise with hull value as much as you'd think however.
Liability is the same for everyone. Most damage doesn't total the
glider. A canopy is $5k on any glider. Insurance companies know this
and charge accordingly. Thus, $20k gliders cost about $1200 to insure,
while $100k gliders still cost less than $2000 to insure.

Hence my point that expensive gliders aren't as expensive as you
think. The fixed costs of owning and operating any glider -- liability
insurance, tows, annual, maintenance, club membership, contest fees,
gas, hotels, beer and burritos -- add up to several thousand dollars
per year. Even using 5% interest, so a $20k glider is $1000 per year,
and a $60k glider is $3000 per year, this capital cost has a smaller
effect than you'd think on the overall cost of soaring.

Or so I try to persuade my wife...

John Cochrane

I live in the US and was in your shoes about five years ago. I used a
few different resources to try and qualify what ships would suit me
best as a first-time owner and low-time pilot. If you can get a hold
of a hard copy of the "Sailplane Directory", there's a nice section in
there by Derek Piggot relating to the characteristics of all the
different sailplanes. He gives ratings for things like ease of
rigging, handling, cockpit size, whether they're good for low-timers,
etc. Derek Piggot also published a book called "Gliding Safety". In
it is a chapter where he discusses what types of ships are good for
first-time owners/low-time pilots. The information is similar to the
"Sailplane Directory", but has a little more in-depth analysis on some
of the different ships. Using these resources would be a good first
step toward narrowing down your possibilities.

As for me, I ended up creating a short list of the ships I was
interested in based on the same budget as yours. After substantial
research, this short list ended up with the following standard class
ships; Libelle 201, Grob 102 Astir, LS1f, LS4, DG101, ASW19. I then
proceeded to go through the FAA registration database and send letters
to owners of these types asking for information based on their
experience and if they're interested in selling. The LS4, well known
as probably the best of this bunch, turned out to be the most
expensive. It was outside of my budget, so I had to eliminate it. Of
the remaining ships on the list, the LS1f turned out to have a lot of
the excellent qualities of the LS4 with a bit less L/D and a bit more
age. So that became my primary focus. I had some possible deals for
Libelles and Grobs, but I held out hoping to find an LS1f. As luck
would have it, three of the LS1f owners that responded to my letters
indicated they would be interested in selling. I looked at the first
one and the gel coat had completely failed and the trailer was wooden
junk. However the second one was in excellent shape and I made a deal
on the spot that was well within my budget after an inspection was
done. It also had a nicely built Schreder trailer with rigging/tow-out
gear as well as a brand new Cambridge 302 installed.

As an owner of an LS1f, I can certainly vouch for it. Although take
that with a grain of salt as I'm still a low-timer. In my experience,
the LS1f is a wonderful ship. Great control harmony, light feel,
extremely easy to rig, solid German engineering, and flies like it's
on rails. The only downside is cockpit size. It's a bit small. I'm 5'
7", 180 pounds and it fits me like a glove (although taller pilots
have also flown it comfortably with some adjustments in the seat back
and rudder pedals). It feels as though I'm wearing it when I fly. Very
comfortable for long-duration flights. The wings seem to come right
out of my shoulders making me feel like I'm one with the ship. A
couple of the experienced pilots in my club have flown it and raved
about it. One of them is a phenomenal pilot that has 3,500 plus hours
in quite a few types of glass ships.

Food for thought.

Good luck in your search. Take your time and try to talk to various
people who actually own the types you're looking at. There's lots of
good opinions from good pilots, but owners will have the best insight
into a particular type. I got excellent response from my letters that
turned into many quality conversations on the phone about these
various ships.

I can vouch for Dave's LS-1F as it lives right next to my Ka-6Cr, and
it's a beautiful ship.

If you are looking to get a budget minded ship with decent performance
ths Ka-6 isn't too bad. Close to 30:1 and pretty good XC potential if
you can find the thermals. And if you don't the bakes on them can get
you into just about any alfalfa field :-)

Beyond that the Ka-6 is a dream to fly. It's well harmonized, and
really doesn't have any bad flying habits. If you still have the
offset CG hook youll need to be aware of it's quirks, but it's nowhere
close to the boogeyman people make it out to be. Assmbly is petty
straight forward, and the control hookups are right out in the open
(none of that l'hotellier junk...).

Best of all you can find some pretty good deals on the beautiful old
wooden birds. I got mine in pretty decent shape with a workable
trailer for $4500. Oh yes and parts do grow on trees :-)

Pete

And if you don't the brakes on them can get
you into just about any alfalfa field :-)


Stated from experience.

Don't forget the outlying airfields... P

That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include:
Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle
Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles "Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find
that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any advice
on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can
weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this
price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control
response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a
Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but
they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing
experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for
our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few
years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also
talked to people who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your
height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of
them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright
lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and
felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs
Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't
seem to be designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and
not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both
in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous
amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same
side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one
for the other because they are widely separated (when you look inside
a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the
standard class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable
as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a
pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before
flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it
isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any
parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has been
extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the field
with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to
fly quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.

Originally Posted by Hagbard Celine

That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include:
Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle
Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles "Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find
that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any advice
on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can
weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this
price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control
response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a
Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but
they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing
experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for
our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few
years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also
talked to people who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your
height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of
them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright
lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and
felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs
Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't
seem to be designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and
not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both
in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous
amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same
side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one
for the other because they are widely separated (when you look inside
a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the
standard class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable
as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a
pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before
flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it
isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any
parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has been
extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the field
with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to
fly quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.

I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct assumptions.

On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:51:38 +0000, Sparkorama wrote:

Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote:
That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include: Schempp-Hirth Standard
Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles "Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find that
they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option too.
I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any advice on
their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can weigh
in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this price
range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control response
and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a Libelle type
rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but they are
roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing experiences
when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for our club's
single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few years ago and
I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also talked to people
who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your height,
weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of them out
for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright lengthwise in
the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and felt too
cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs Standard Jantar
but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't seem to be
designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and not
inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both in
terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous amount of
rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same side as the
airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one for the other
because they are widely separated (when you look inside a 15 it's
pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the standard
class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable as an
afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain
as you really need someone to help close it for you before flight, it
has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it isn't twitchy
at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any parts, TN's or
general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has been extremely
helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the field with two
Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to fly
quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.

I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and
originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain
and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct
assumptions.

Each different construction method has its own gotchas:

- metal: some years ago there was a very cheap Pilatus B4 on eBay,
but in the pictures you could easily see corrosion round the rivets
that attach the cockpit floor to the sides. Judging by the colour the
rivets were steel....

- wood: since you can't see the wing interior, you'll need to take the
state of the glue joints on trust or strip and recover the wings and
tail.

- glass: damage can be near invisible if it was finished carefully after
repairs, so a NDH claim has to be believed unless/until you do a weight
& balance as part of your pre-purchase inspection.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:51:38 +0000, Sparkorama wrote:

Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote:
That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include: Schempp-Hirth Standard
Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles "Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll find that
they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option too.
I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any advice on
their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can weigh
in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into this price
range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control response
and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a Libelle type
rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble) but they are
roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing experiences
when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder for our club's
single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a few years ago and
I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also talked to people
who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in "Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your height,
weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of them out
for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright lengthwise in
the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room and felt too
cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs Standard Jantar
but I was one of the few who was, many said it didn't seem to be
designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and not
inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons (both in
terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous amount of
rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same side as the
airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one for the other
because they are widely separated (when you look inside a 15 it's
pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per the standard
class regs of the time and then changed over to retractable as an
afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain
as you really need someone to help close it for you before flight, it
has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so it isn't twitchy
at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed any parts, TN's or
general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has been extremely
helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the field with two
Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready to fly
quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.
I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and
originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to maintain
and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are correct
assumptions.

Each different construction method has its own gotchas:

- metal: some years ago there was a very cheap Pilatus B4 on eBay,
but in the pictures you could easily see corrosion round the rivets
that attach the cockpit floor to the sides. Judging by the colour the
rivets were steel....

- wood: since you can't see the wing interior, you'll need to take the
state of the glue joints on trust or strip and recover the wings and
tail.

- glass: damage can be near invisible if it was finished carefully after
repairs, so a NDH claim has to be believed unless/until you do a weight
& balance as part of your pre-purchase inspection.


Interesting that "sparkorama" hasn't identified himself - which is
annoying to me because I've probably been in the back seat while he was
flying :-). In any case, He said "I'll be putting some winter flying
time in and I'm considering buying my first glider once I'm back to
comfortable solos and my private license.". So, take your time while you
get to solo and license - there's no need to rush. In any case, I
heartily endorse Juan's comment that you fly the heck out of the 1-34,
L-33, and B4 while you sort out what it is that you want to do with the
glider (XC, acro, flag pole sitting?) while waiting for your glider to
come on the market. For many used glider buyers, it's probably not a
good idea to look for a single glider because you may wait a looong time
for that glider to come around. Rather, you should decide on a range
gliders and buy the first (or second) one that comes up for sale that
meets your needs. BTW, George Waters has a glider that may fit your bill
:-).

Tony V. LS6-b "6N"