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#51
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wrote in message ... On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:39:06 GMT, Mitty wrote: Those lucky enough to be in low risk groups certainly will enjoy the express service. People objectively concerned about safety should be pleased that resources are not wasted on screening low risk groups just to be PC. For example, I would be very pleased to see Chinese grandmothers passed with minimal screening. It's interesting that you use this example. Not too many years ago, the white citizens in this country rounded up a large group of yellow citzens, grandmothers and all, and placed them in internment camps because of what some other yellow people from halfway around the world had done. It had nothing to do with "White" people. No one was really made safer, but it made all the white folks feel better, and they had the power to do it, and so it was done. Everyone in the US was safer, and many live today because of that action. I have a feeling their rationale at the time was not all that far from what yours is today, and just as meaningful We should do the same today. Just about everybody today ( with the possible exception of conservative kook Michelle Malkin) believes that it was a shameful episode of American history, and our government eventually apologized to the victims and paid reparations. And like the old saying goes, those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Your problem is you are unable to learn, leftist brainwashing. The US broke the Japanese secret code very early in the war. Because of that it was known that there were many Japanese spies were in the US. It would have been impossible to round up just the spies, without giving up the secret that we knew the code. Thus they were all interred. No other way to do it. The US won it's first comeback at Midway, early in the war (June 42') largely because of the code breaking. Anyone who questions my motives here should be aware that my family (US citizens) was also rounded up and confined away from the Pacific coast. KG |
#53
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kage wrote:
The US broke the Japanese secret code very early in the war. Because of that it was known that there were many Japanese spies were in the US. It would have been impossible to round up just the spies, without giving up the secret that we knew the code. Thus they were all interred. No other way to do it. You're pretty unfamilar with the tenants of counter-intelligence, arn't you? Identified spies are very rarely 'rounded up'. They are allowed to operate, but it is insured that the information that they are transmitting is bogus. Giving the enemy bad information is better than giving them no information at all. Pretty much been that way since Alexander the Great. -- Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Hood River, OR |
#54
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"kage" wrote in message
... The US broke the Japanese secret code very early in the war. Because of that it was known that there were many Japanese spies were in the US. It would have been impossible to round up just the spies, without giving up the secret that we knew the code. Thus they were all interred. No other way to do it. 1) What evidence do you have that cracked Japanese codes revealed the identities of spies? 2) If their identities were known, wouldn't standard practice have been to feed false information to some, while capturing others (without disclosing the grounds for suspicion), depending on which approach was more advantageous in particular instances? 3) If their identities were known, why were they not captured in the course of the supposedly obfuscatory internment? No one else would know that they weren't just interned in some other camp. 4) If their identities were known, why were they not prosecuted after the war? 5) Even in retrospect, is there any documentation of espionage or sabotage by specific Japanese Americans? 5) It is axiomatic that there will be some spies, including people who just sympathize with the enemy's cause. Why not intern Americans of German or Italian ancestry too? Their heritage may not be as physically conspicuous, but it would be possible to identify many nonetheless--so why not, by your reasoning, intern those whose German or Italian ancestry was known, or suspected? At least some of them would probably be spies. I have a feeling their rationale at the time was not all that far from what yours is today, and just as meaningful We should do the same today. So you're openly advocating that we start rounding up and interning millions of Americans of certain religious or ethnic groups today. (This time, the internment would presumably be permanent, since the "war on terror" will not end in just a few years.) Just out of curiosity, would the resulting civil war really make you feel safer? (You do realize that a huge portion of our population would take up arms if necessary to defend our Constitution against such an odious subversion, right?) Or are you one of those people who actually try to promote an apocalypse, hoping to be rewarded in an afterlife? --Gary |
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"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
... "kage" wrote in message ... The US broke the Japanese secret code very early in the war. Because of that it was known that there were many Japanese spies were in the US. It would have been impossible to round up just the spies, without giving up the secret that we knew the code. Thus they were all interred. No other way to do it. 1) What evidence do you have that cracked Japanese codes revealed the identities of spies? 2) If their identities were known, wouldn't standard practice have been to feed false information to some, while capturing others (without disclosing the grounds for suspicion), depending on which approach was more advantageous in particular instances? That, in a nutshell, is how they knew for sure they'd broken the code(s). The US let it be known (in what circles, I'm not sure...probably feeding bad info to spies...) that Midway was running out of water. Say the Japanese codeword for water was Alligator and the word for Midway was Lotus. The US identified a message saying that Lotus was running out of Alligator so we're going to attack Lotus...BINGO! We knew they were coming. At least that's the way I've read it was done. But, I believe the OP is correct in stating that they put a major iron lid on the fact that we were listening "outside Yamamoto's door." Jay Beckman PP-ASEL Chandler, AZ |
#56
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"Frank Stutzman" wrote in message ... kage wrote: The US broke the Japanese secret code very early in the war. Because of that it was known that there were many Japanese spies were in the US. It would have been impossible to round up just the spies, without giving up the secret that we knew the code. Thus they were all interred. No other way to do it. You're pretty unfamilar with the tenants of counter-intelligence, arn't you? Identified spies are very rarely 'rounded up'. They are allowed to operate, but it is insured that the information that they are transmitting is bogus. Giving the enemy bad information is better than giving them no information at all. Pretty much been that way since Alexander the Great. -- Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Hood River, OR You assume a lot, Frank. How do you assume the US knew ALL the spies? Many, many lives were saved by the interment. Just like the millions of lives saved by the atom bomb being dropped. Frank, you really should go to New York and check out ground zero, instead of hanging out in the last bastion of the hippies, Oregon! Karl |
#57
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"kage" wrote in message
... How do you assume the US knew ALL the spies? First, you proposed that the internment of all Japanese Americans was justified because the government supposedly knew which few of them were spies (though you provided no evidence for that assertion). Then, when it was pointed out that that would not have been a sensible response to knowing the identities of some spies, you decided instead that the justification for the internment was that the government *didn't* know who some of the spies were. Are you making this up as you go along? And what about the unknown spies among Americans of German or Italian descent? Shouldn't anyone who was known (or suspected) to be of such descent have been interned too, by your rationale? Many, many lives were saved by the interment. How? Please be specific. What is your evidence? Which internees were revealed after the war to have been spies, and what life-threatening information were they privy to that they couldn't have been kept from except by interning all Japanese Americans? I'm sure you'd agree that it would be unspeakably irresponsible to represent idle speculation as fact in order to rationalize the imprisonment of millions of innocent people based on their race (and in order to have it done again, as you have advocated). So then what is the factual basis for your assertion that "many, many" lives were saved by the internment? --Gary |
#58
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kage wrote:
You assume a lot, Frank. How do you assume the US knew ALL the spies? They didn't. And putting the Japanese-americans into camps did nothing (or at least very little) to catch the spies. There were several native born americans spying for the Japanese. I refer you to "Shadows Dancing: Japanese Espionage Against the West, 1939-1945" by Tony Matthews. There is an example of what I'm refering to in a on-line review of this book at http://vikingphoenix.com/public/Japa...5/brshadnc.htm Many, many lives were saved by the interment. Just like the millions of lives saved by the atom bomb being dropped. Maybe, maybe not. Such arguements are difficult to prove and I won't attempt to debate it. My only point is that 'rounding up' a whole ethic class to catch a few potential spies is counter productive from an intelligence stand point. Frank, you really should go to New York and check out ground zero, instead of hanging out in the last bastion of the hippies, Oregon! I've been to ground zero. I lost aquaintances on 9/11. Your ad homin point is not well received and I think my involvement in this thread is over. -- Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Hood River, OR |
#59
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On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:55:13 -0700, "Jay Beckman"
wrote: That, in a nutshell, is how they knew for sure they'd broken the code(s). The US let it be known (in what circles, I'm not sure...probably feeding bad info to spies...) that Midway was running out of water. Say the Japanese codeword for water was Alligator and the word for Midway was Lotus. The US identified a message saying that Lotus was running out of Alligator so we're going to attack Lotus...BINGO! We knew they were coming. American Intelligence had been picking up traffic accasionally referring to "AF", which Cmdr Joseph Rochefort, who was head of intelligence in Hawaii, thought was Midway. He convinced Nimitz to have Midway broadcast a message, in the clear, so that Japanese listening stations would be sure to hear it, that their water distillation plant was out of order, and they were running out of water. When Rochefort's people picked up a Japanese massage saying that "AF" was out of water, it confirmed his suspicions. Even so, a lot of Navy bigwigs still thought it was a Japanese ruse., and that the real target of the Japanese was the west coast. At least that's the way I've read it was done. But, I believe the OP is correct in stating that they put a major iron lid on the fact that we were listening "outside Yamamoto's door." Jay Beckman PP-ASEL Chandler, AZ |
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