Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

I fly from KLAX to KLAS, using the FMC to handle most of the flight.
With the routing I put in, the FMC decides on some default altitudes
and includes required altitudes for the arrival and departure
procedures I select. Part of what it does is to create a descent
schedule from the nominal cruise altitude to the arrival procedure.

So I leave KLAX and my last explicit instruction from ATC is "climb
and maintain FL290," which is my programmed and filed cruise altitude.
Now, my question is this: If the FMC has a programmed descent in its
route, do I let the FMC start the descent where it sees fit, or do I
force the aircraft to maintain FL290 until ATC explicitly clears me
for my own navigation or for a lower altitude? And if ATC's last
instruction had simply been "resume own navigation" or "proceed as
filed," would that mean that I'd be free to begin the descent whenever
the FMC (or I) decides it's best?

In situations where I can begin the descent at my discretion (assuming
that own navigation implies this), should I tell ATC that I'm leaving
my cruise altitude? If the FMC has a continuously changing estimate
of lower altitudes in the descent profile, what should I give as my
target altitude? The next fix that has a specific altitude? (Such as
a fix in the arrival procedure)

Climbing I think I understand. If I'm told to resume own navigation,
or cleared as filed in the first place, I climb per my flight plan/FMC
profile. If ATC says maintain X, I stay at X until ATC tells me to
resume own navigation or instructs me to change altitudes. But the
descent part still has me a bit confused.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:
I fly from KLAX to KLAS, using the FMC to handle most of the flight.
With the routing I put in, the FMC decides on some default altitudes
and includes required altitudes for the arrival and departure
procedures I select. Part of what it does is to create a descent
schedule from the nominal cruise altitude to the arrival procedure.

So I leave KLAX and my last explicit instruction from ATC is "climb
and maintain FL290," which is my programmed and filed cruise altitude.
Now, my question is this: If the FMC has a programmed descent in its
route, do I let the FMC start the descent where it sees fit, or do I
force the aircraft to maintain FL290 until ATC explicitly clears me
for my own navigation or for a lower altitude? And if ATC's last
instruction had simply been "resume own navigation" or "proceed as
filed," would that mean that I'd be free to begin the descent whenever
the FMC (or I) decides it's best?

In situations where I can begin the descent at my discretion (assuming
that own navigation implies this), should I tell ATC that I'm leaving
my cruise altitude? If the FMC has a continuously changing estimate
of lower altitudes in the descent profile, what should I give as my
target altitude? The next fix that has a specific altitude? (Such as
a fix in the arrival procedure)

Climbing I think I understand. If I'm told to resume own navigation,
or cleared as filed in the first place, I climb per my flight plan/FMC
profile. If ATC says maintain X, I stay at X until ATC tells me to
resume own navigation or instructs me to change altitudes. But the
descent part still has me a bit confused.

Are you flying IFR? if so then ATC will tell you what altitude to be at.
Resume own navigation refers to routing not altitude. VFR is a
different set of rules.

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 15:35:41 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote in :

I fly [MS FlightSimulator] from KLAX to KLAS, using the FMC to handle most of the flight.
With the routing I put in, the FMC decides on some default altitudes
and includes required altitudes for the arrival and departure
procedures I select. Part of what it does is to create a descent
schedule from the nominal cruise altitude to the arrival procedure.

So I leave KLAX and my last explicit instruction from ATC is "climb
and maintain FL290," which is my programmed and filed cruise altitude.
Now, my question is this: If the FMC has a programmed descent in its
route, do I let the FMC start the descent where it sees fit, or do I
force the aircraft to maintain FL290 until ATC explicitly clears me
for my own navigation or for a lower altitude?

Above 18,000' is Class A airspace. It's also called positive control
airspace; you won't get a "resume own navigation" instruction in Class
A airspace.

You can request lower from ATC, but until you are given a new
altitude, you must maintain that for which you are cleared.

And if ATC's last
instruction had simply been "resume own navigation" or "proceed as
filed," would that mean that I'd be free to begin the descent whenever
the FMC (or I) decides it's best?

No.

Consider reading the appropriate Aeronautical Information Manual
sections http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/, so that you don't pose such
obviously ignorant questions to three newsgroups.

i wonder if his simulator's ATC tells him to hang himself he will? (one
can only hope)
John Theune wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
I fly from KLAX to KLAS, using the FMC to handle most of the flight.
With the routing I put in, the FMC decides on some default altitudes
and includes required altitudes for the arrival and departure
procedures I select. Part of what it does is to create a descent
schedule from the nominal cruise altitude to the arrival procedure.

So I leave KLAX and my last explicit instruction from ATC is "climb
and maintain FL290," which is my programmed and filed cruise altitude.
Now, my question is this: If the FMC has a programmed descent in its
route, do I let the FMC start the descent where it sees fit, or do I
force the aircraft to maintain FL290 until ATC explicitly clears me
for my own navigation or for a lower altitude? And if ATC's last
instruction had simply been "resume own navigation" or "proceed as
filed," would that mean that I'd be free to begin the descent whenever
the FMC (or I) decides it's best?

In situations where I can begin the descent at my discretion (assuming
that own navigation implies this), should I tell ATC that I'm leaving
my cruise altitude? If the FMC has a continuously changing estimate
of lower altitudes in the descent profile, what should I give as my
target altitude? The next fix that has a specific altitude? (Such as
a fix in the arrival procedure)

Climbing I think I understand. If I'm told to resume own navigation,
or cleared as filed in the first place, I climb per my flight plan/FMC
profile. If ATC says maintain X, I stay at X until ATC tells me to
resume own navigation or instructs me to change altitudes. But the
descent part still has me a bit confused.

Are you flying IFR? if so then ATC will tell you what altitude to be at.
Resume own navigation refers to routing not altitude. VFR is a
different set of rules.

John Theune writes:

Are you flying IFR?

Yes. I've filed a SID, a route, and a STAR, and programmed this into
the FMC as well. The FMC apparently decides when to start the descent
from cruise (if you don't override it), presumably based on the
altitude restrictions it has to respect for the arrival procedure.

if so then ATC will tell you what altitude to be at.
Resume own navigation refers to routing not altitude.

Ah ... is there another phrase that also means altitude is at my
discretion, or is altitude always under the control of ATC? The fact
that the FMC provides for its own descent schedule implies that there
must be situations in IFR where I'm allowed to climb or descend at my
discretion (?).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Larry Dighera writes:

Above 18,000' is Class A airspace. It's also called positive control
airspace; you won't get a "resume own navigation" instruction in Class
A airspace.

You can request lower from ATC, but until you are given a new
altitude, you must maintain that for which you are cleared.

OK. Does that apply to lateral navigation as well? Nobody seems to
object when I let the FMC follow the lateral course as filed (at least
during the en route phase of the flight).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic,

I fly from KLAX to KLAS


No, you don't. For the sake of those reading here that haven't
discovered your background, please state clearly that you are playing
MS FS.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Mxsmanic,

The fact
that the FMC provides for its own descent schedule implies that there
must be situations in IFR where I'm allowed to climb or descend at my
discretion


No. That fact implies that the simulation does not simulate real life
well in this respect. You wanted an example, you got one all by
yourself.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Mxsmanic,

Nobody seems to
object when I let the FMC follow the lateral course as filed


And who would, in a simulation? All the times I have played FS in a
multiplayer environment, the guys simulating ATC really had no clue at
all about how it is done in real life. They still made a big deal about
following the rules they themselves didn't understand, though.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 15:35:41 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote in :

I fly [MS FlightSimulator] from KLAX to KLAS, using the FMC to handle
most of the flight.

Good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome to Imaginary Airlines. Sorry
for the delay in departure, but we had some technical difficulties with the
PC and had to reboot from a "blue screen of death". Everything is normal
now and we should be departing as soon as I give myself clearance and hit
the bathroom. Oops, wait a minute, I think I hear the telephone ringing...
Sorry again for the delay - that was my ex-girlfriend and the conversation
got a little terse. I also took the opportunity to make a sandwich and pop
open a brewski. On climbout be sure to look down and notice the beautiful
parquee floor below us. Those of you fortunate enough to be seated on the
right side of the room will have a fantastic view of the door to the bath
room. As long as the power stays on and this #$&@# windows PC behaves we
should be arriving on time. Thanks again for flying Imaginary Airlines, we
hope to see you back again soon...