ADS-B Compliance

Thanks Darryl.
BillT

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 4:45:43 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here befo after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out.

This is incorrect. And yes it's been claimed before on r.a.s. and folks like me have spent time correcting that misinoamtion. Did you bother to read any og that past stuff before postign yet tagaint he same wrng claim?

Who exactly from the FAA told you this? What is their role/position/department? Got a phone number I'll be happy to contact them and correct their confusion.

The "dummies" explanation of this is the14 CFR workinf for cartirate reuqroetmsn and glider exntpiosm fro ADS-B Out basically mirros the same reqikanmta and exmaptiosn for teansponders. if the ADS-B reuglations meant gliders needed ADS-B out above 10,000' then we would have had to been carryign transpodners above 10,000', and we don't... right.

Did you actually try to carefully read 14 CFR 91.225? I understand that reading CFRs is not fun but you have to switch on the part of your brain that can processes nonsense and work thought carefully exactly what the lawyer writing some regulation meant. The wording that confuses people is this one...

"(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted--
(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."

The clause here about 10,000' or lower applies to the below the ceiling of class B or C airport, not in general. it's not too hard to work out. It's not a separate clause, its a qualifier on the opening of that sentence talking about below the altitude of Class B or C airspace. They just don't want non-ADS-B out aircraft near Class B or C airspace.

Note the nearly exact same wording here as the exemption for transponder carriage in 14 CFR § 91.215 (b)(3)

"(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and"

All yes, this exactly has been discussed out on r.a.s. before...

The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out.

That would be TSO-C199/TABS devcices that have been posted about here a lot.. If you are going to sleep through the movie you are going to miss a lot....

Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020.

Bull****, no it won't, not currently. If gliders lose their current ADS-B Out exemption it may become an issue.

I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

As discussed elsewhere in this thread, your TT-21 cannot be used to meet ADS-B Out 2020 carriage mandate requirements (which gliders are currently exempt from).

The size of a complaint (e.g. TSO-C145c or equivalent) GPS is really not the issue. Why would you fit it "in your panel"? That GPS box and antenna could be installed in many locations in a typical glider. The significant issue is likely cost and maybe power consumption.

And asking for advice about GPS units for a certain ADS-B Out system, and thinking you have much choice, may be a waste of time, certainly for certified gliders. *** Go ask the ADS-B Out manufacturer what you are allowed to use--and do what they say***. In a certified glider or any other aircraft you do not have an arbitrary choice of what GPS to install with what ADS-B Out system. Anybody planning to do an install should check with the transponder manufacturer and the A&P/avionics shop who is going to do the install and obtain FAA field approval for the install. You need to correct setup documentation from the manufacturer and the FAA FSDO will likely want to see that documentation/previous STC approval of the same GPS and ADS-B-Out pairing. And yes all this has been discussed on r.a.s before as well...

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

The solution is to stop worrying about thing that are not issues, and wait and see what happens with glider carriage exemptions and with TABS/TSO-C199 regulations and devices.

[sorry repost, with many typos corrected]

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 4:45:43 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here befo after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out.

This is incorrect. And yes it's been claimed before on r.a.s. and folks like me have spent time correcting that misinformation. Did you bother to read any of that past stuff before posting yet again the same wrong, confused, information?

Who exactly from the FAA told you this? What is their role/position/department? Got a phone number? I'll be happy to contact them and correct their confusion, or point other FAA employees at them to do the same.

The "dummies" explanation of this is the14 CFR 91.225 wording for ADS-B Out carriage requirements and glider exemptions basically mirrors the same requirements and exemption regulations for transponders. If the ADS-B Out carriage regulations meant gliders needed ADS-B out above 10,000' then we would have had to been carrying transponders above 10,000' all this time, and we don't... right.

Did you actually try to carefully read 14 CFR 91.225? I understand that reading CFRs is not fun but you have to switch on the part of your brain that can processes nonsense and work thought carefully exactly what the lawyer writing some regulation meant. The wording that confuses people is this one...

"(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted--
(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."

The clause here about 10,000' or lower applies to the below the ceiling of Class B or C airport, not in general. it's not too hard to work out. It's not a separate clause, its a qualifier on the opening of that sentence talking about below the altitude of Class B or C airspace. They just don't want non-ADS-B out aircraft near Class B or C airspace.

Note the nearly exact same wording here as the exemption for transponder carriage in 14 CFR § 91.215 (b)(3)

"(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and"

And yes, this exactly has been all explained on r.a.s. before...

The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out.

Well the real good news is you are wrong. But what you are talking about now is TSO-C199/TABS devices that have been posted about on r.a.s a lot. If you are going to sleep through the movie you are going to miss a lot...

Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020.

Bull****, no it won't, not currently. If gliders lose their current ADS-B Out exemption this may become an issue. If we do lose that exemption I hope we will gain the ability to use TABS devices to meet both transponder and ADS-B Out requirements. I and others have posted on r.a.s. about TSO-C199 since shortly after the TSO was published, you can search r.a.s. for those posts.

I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

As discussed elsewhere in this thread, your TT-21 cannot be used to meet ADS-B Out 2020 carriage mandate requirements (which gliders are currently exempt from).

The size of a complaint (e.g. TSO-C145c or equivalent) GPS is really not the issue. Why would you fit it "in your panel"? That GPS box and antenna could be installed in many locations in a typical glider. The significant issue is likely cost and maybe power consumption.

And asking for advice about GPS units for a certain ADS-B Out system, and thinking you have much choice, may be a waste of time, certainly for certified gliders. *** You should be asking the ADS-B Out manufacturer what they support you using--and do what they say***. There are serious technical issues here. In a certified glider or any other aircraft you do not have an arbitrary choice of what GPS to install with what ADS-B Out system. Anybody planning to do an install should check with the transponder manufacturer and the A&P/avionics shop who is going to do the install and obtain FAA field approval for the install. You need to correct setup documentation from the manufacturer and the FAA FSDO will likely want to see that documentation/previous STC approval of the same GPS and ADS-B-Out pairing. And yes all this has been discussed on r.a.s before as well...

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

The solution is to stop worrying about thing that are not issues, and certainly to stop posting all this misinformation on r.a.s, and just wait and see what happens with glider carriage exemptions and with TABS/TSO-C199 regulations and devices.

This is incorrect. And yes it's been claimed before on r.a.s. and folks like me have spent time correcting that misinformation. Did you bother to read any of that past stuff before posting yet again the same wrong, confused, information?

Yes, I did.


Who exactly from the FAA told you this? What is their role/position/department? Got a phone number? I'll be happy to contact them and correct their confusion, or point other FAA employees at them to do the same.


I spoke to Doug Belcher from the Spokane FSDO (800-341-2623).


Did you actually try to carefully read 14 CFR 91.225?

Yes, I did.


The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out.

Well the real good news is you are wrong. But what you are talking about now is TSO-C199/TABS devices that have been posted about on r.a.s a lot. If you are going to sleep through the movie you are going to miss a lot...

The good news is you can get your info straight from the FAA: http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/20...20briefing.pdf



Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020.

Bull****, no it won't, not currently. If gliders lose their current ADS-B Out exemption this may become an issue. If we do lose that exemption I hope we will gain the ability to use TABS devices to meet both transponder and ADS-B Out requirements. I and others have posted on r.a.s. about TSO-C199 since shortly after the TSO was published, you can search r.a.s. for those posts.

I suggest that you take that up with the FAA, not me. After all, the FAA has the ONLY vote that counts!


I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

As discussed elsewhere in this thread, your TT-21 cannot be used to meet ADS-B Out 2020 carriage mandate requirements (which gliders are currently exempt from).

The size of a complaint (e.g. TSO-C145c or equivalent) GPS is really not the issue. Why would you fit it "in your panel"? That GPS box and antenna could be installed in many locations in a typical glider. The significant issue is likely cost and maybe power consumption.


I think you mean "compliant GPS". Where and how I mount my equipment in my glider is up to me and my A&P, but having smaller certified units would make life MUCH easier.

And asking for advice about GPS units for a certain ADS-B Out system, and thinking you have much choice, may be a waste of time, certainly for certified gliders.

It certainly has been to this point.

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

The solution is to stop worrying about thing that are not issues, and certainly to stop posting all this misinformation on r.a.s, and just wait and see what happens with glider carriage exemptions and with TABS/TSO-C199 regulations and devices.

I agree with you that 91.225, as written, exempts gliders from ADS-B out compliance. I am going to get a clarification from the FAA on this.

Tom

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 8:33:05 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
[sorry repost, with many typos corrected]

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 4:45:43 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here befo after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out.

This is incorrect. And yes it's been claimed before on r.a.s. and folks like me have spent time correcting that misinformation. Did you bother to read any of that past stuff before posting yet again the same wrong, confused, information?

Who exactly from the FAA told you this? What is their role/position/department? Got a phone number? I'll be happy to contact them and correct their confusion, or point other FAA employees at them to do the same.

The "dummies" explanation of this is the14 CFR 91.225 wording for ADS-B Out carriage requirements and glider exemptions basically mirrors the same requirements and exemption regulations for transponders. If the ADS-B Out carriage regulations meant gliders needed ADS-B out above 10,000' then we would have had to been carrying transponders above 10,000' all this time, and we don't... right.

Did you actually try to carefully read 14 CFR 91.225? I understand that reading CFRs is not fun but you have to switch on the part of your brain that can processes nonsense and work thought carefully exactly what the lawyer writing some regulation meant. The wording that confuses people is this one..

"(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted--
(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."

The clause here about 10,000' or lower applies to the below the ceiling of Class B or C airport, not in general. it's not too hard to work out. It's not a separate clause, its a qualifier on the opening of that sentence talking about below the altitude of Class B or C airspace. They just don't want non-ADS-B out aircraft near Class B or C airspace.

Note the nearly exact same wording here as the exemption for transponder carriage in 14 CFR § 91.215 (b)(3)

"(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and"

And yes, this exactly has been all explained on r.a.s. before...

The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out.

Well the real good news is you are wrong. But what you are talking about now is TSO-C199/TABS devices that have been posted about on r.a.s a lot. If you are going to sleep through the movie you are going to miss a lot...

Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020.

Bull****, no it won't, not currently. If gliders lose their current ADS-B Out exemption this may become an issue. If we do lose that exemption I hope we will gain the ability to use TABS devices to meet both transponder and ADS-B Out requirements. I and others have posted on r.a.s. about TSO-C199 since shortly after the TSO was published, you can search r.a.s. for those posts.

I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening.

As discussed elsewhere in this thread, your TT-21 cannot be used to meet ADS-B Out 2020 carriage mandate requirements (which gliders are currently exempt from).

The size of a complaint (e.g. TSO-C145c or equivalent) GPS is really not the issue. Why would you fit it "in your panel"? That GPS box and antenna could be installed in many locations in a typical glider. The significant issue is likely cost and maybe power consumption.

And asking for advice about GPS units for a certain ADS-B Out system, and thinking you have much choice, may be a waste of time, certainly for certified gliders. *** You should be asking the ADS-B Out manufacturer what they support you using--and do what they say***. There are serious technical issues here. In a certified glider or any other aircraft you do not have an arbitrary choice of what GPS to install with what ADS-B Out system. Anybody planning to do an install should check with the transponder manufacturer and the A&P/avionics shop who is going to do the install and obtain FAA field approval for the install. You need to correct setup documentation from the manufacturer and the FAA FSDO will likely want to see that documentation/previous STC approval of the same GPS and ADS-B-Out pairing. And yes all this has been discussed on r.a.s before as well...

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

The solution is to stop worrying about thing that are not issues, and certainly to stop posting all this misinformation on r.a.s, and just wait and see what happens with glider carriage exemptions and with TABS/TSO-C199 regulations and devices.

I contacted the Spokane FSDO again today, but talked instead to Chris Cowgill, an aviation safety inspector. Like Belcher, he was unfamiliar with the ADS-B Out mandate and 91.225 (a recurring theme). After a quick reading he agreed with me that gliders are exempt.

Usually I get very informed responses from the FAA, but they failed me this time. 2020 is still a ways off, and the guys in the field just haven't been asked this before. They should still know the regs, however, or at the very least contact somebody that does.

Tom

On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 9:58:44 AM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 8:33:05 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
[sorry repost, with many typos corrected]

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 4:45:43 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
I confirmed with the FAA recently what others have said here befo after 1/1/2020 glider flight at altitudes 10,000 ft and above AND above 2,500 ft AGL WILL require ADS-B out.

This is incorrect. And yes it's been claimed before on r.a.s. and folks like me have spent time correcting that misinformation. Did you bother to read any of that past stuff before posting yet again the same wrong, confused, information?

Who exactly from the FAA told you this? What is their role/position/department? Got a phone number? I'll be happy to contact them and correct their confusion, or point other FAA employees at them to do the same.

The "dummies" explanation of this is the14 CFR 91.225 wording for ADS-B Out carriage requirements and glider exemptions basically mirrors the same requirements and exemption regulations for transponders. If the ADS-B Out carriage regulations meant gliders needed ADS-B out above 10,000' then we would have had to been carrying transponders above 10,000' all this time, and we don't... right.

Did you actually try to carefully read 14 CFR 91.225? I understand that reading CFRs is not fun but you have to switch on the part of your brain that can processes nonsense and work thought carefully exactly what the lawyer writing some regulation meant. The wording that confuses people is this one..

"(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted--
(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower."

The clause here about 10,000' or lower applies to the below the ceiling of Class B or C airport, not in general. it's not too hard to work out. It's not a separate clause, its a qualifier on the opening of that sentence talking about below the altitude of Class B or C airspace. They just don't want non-ADS-B out aircraft near Class B or C airspace.

Note the nearly exact same wording here as the exemption for transponder carriage in 14 CFR § 91.215 (b)(3)

"(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and"

And yes, this exactly has been all explained on r.a.s. before...

The only good news that I got is that the FAA is actively looking at low-cost, low-power GPS sources for the GPS part of ADS-B out.

Well the real good news is you are wrong. But what you are talking about now is TSO-C199/TABS devices that have been posted about on r.a.s a lot. If you are going to sleep through the movie you are going to miss a lot...

Flying in the high desert West will effectively be grounded w/o ADS-B out compliance after 1/1/2020.

Bull****, no it won't, not currently. If gliders lose their current ADS-B Out exemption this may become an issue. If we do lose that exemption I hope we will gain the ability to use TABS devices to meet both transponder and ADS-B Out requirements. I and others have posted on r.a.s. about TSO-C199 since shortly after the TSO was published, you can search r.a.s. for those posts.

I already have a Mode-S ES (extended squitter) transponder (Trig TT-21), but have struggled to find a suitable certified GPS. Yes, there are units out there, but there size would choke an elephant! Typically, they are 5.5" x 6.5" x 2.3" (give or take half an inch). I don't know about the rest of you, but fitting a monster like that into my panel just ain't happening..

As discussed elsewhere in this thread, your TT-21 cannot be used to meet ADS-B Out 2020 carriage mandate requirements (which gliders are currently exempt from).

The size of a complaint (e.g. TSO-C145c or equivalent) GPS is really not the issue. Why would you fit it "in your panel"? That GPS box and antenna could be installed in many locations in a typical glider. The significant issue is likely cost and maybe power consumption.

And asking for advice about GPS units for a certain ADS-B Out system, and thinking you have much choice, may be a waste of time, certainly for certified gliders. *** You should be asking the ADS-B Out manufacturer what they support you using--and do what they say***. There are serious technical issues here. In a certified glider or any other aircraft you do not have an arbitrary choice of what GPS to install with what ADS-B Out system. Anybody planning to do an install should check with the transponder manufacturer and the A&P/avionics shop who is going to do the install and obtain FAA field approval for the install. You need to correct setup documentation from the manufacturer and the FAA FSDO will likely want to see that documentation/previous STC approval of the same GPS and ADS-B-Out pairing. And yes all this has been discussed on r.a.s before as well...

Does anybody know of a smaller solution?

The solution is to stop worrying about thing that are not issues, and certainly to stop posting all this misinformation on r.a.s, and just wait and see what happens with glider carriage exemptions and with TABS/TSO-C199 regulations and devices.

I contacted the Spokane FSDO again today, but talked instead to Chris Cowgill, an aviation safety inspector. Like Belcher, he was unfamiliar with the ADS-B Out mandate and 91.225 (a recurring theme). After a quick reading he agreed with me that gliders are exempt.

Usually I get very informed responses from the FAA, but they failed me this time. 2020 is still a ways off, and the guys in the field just haven't been asked this before. They should still know the regs, however, or at the very least contact somebody that does.

Tom

Tom, thanks for following up. That particular wording *is* sadly confusing. And that Class B/C airspace ceiling and 10,000' issue is something folks who fly gliders near Class B and C airspace should be aware of... but the much better thing there has been to just equip with transponders and not have to worry about complying with that exclusion. Come 2020 folks who fly gliders near Class B/C airspace and who are not ADS-B out equipped (presumably almost everybody) will need to worry about not violating 14 CFR 91.225(e)(2). If gliders lose transponder and ADS-B Out exemptions and/or TABS regulations happen then lots of things about all this will change.

snip?

On 3/2/2016 8:43 PM, 2G wrote:
The good news is you can get your info straight from the FAA:http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/20...20briefing.pdf
\snip

I was just talking with my local FSDO and he laughed and told me that,
during his training in Oklahoma city, he was welcomed to the FAA where
they have 93 independently operated offices! Yes, they're all supposed
to operate under the same rules (the FARs) but they sometimes interpret
them differently. For example, when I received my Air Force training in
the Rockwell Sabreliner, the FSDO in the region where I took the
training considered the aircraft to be a center-line thrust aircraft.
So I deferred getting a type rating in the aircraft until I returned to
my duty station in a different region where the aircraft was NOT
considered to be a center-line thrust aircraft. Voila! I received an
unrestricted Airplane Multi-engine Land rating with a type rating for
the aircraft. Same rules, different interpretation.

I'm gonna wait until the ADS-B requirements are better defined before
buying any equipment.
--
Dan, 5J

On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 12:32:17 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:


I'm gonna wait until the ADS-B requirements are better defined before
buying any equipment.

In general a good strategy. But for anyone installing or upgrading a
transponder today, paying attention to ADS-B would make sense. Putting
in a Mode S that was not upgradeable would not be advised.

Apart from that, pilots intending to fly high in the great SouthWest
should keep in mind that Class 2 transponders like the TT21 are limited
by regulation to 15,000 ft MSL. Certainly not worth it to me to save a
small amount of power and cost by putting up with a limitation like that.

-Dave

Indeed!

My LAK-17a, which, BTW, is for sale on Wings and Wheels (shameless
plug), has a compliant Trig TT22 transponder installed.

Dan

On 3/3/2016 9:22 PM, David Kinsell wrote:
On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 12:32:17 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:


I'm gonna wait until the ADS-B requirements are better defined before
buying any equipment.
In general a good strategy. But for anyone installing or upgrading a
transponder today, paying attention to ADS-B would make sense. Putting
in a Mode S that was not upgradeable would not be advised.

Apart from that, pilots intending to fly high in the great SouthWest
should keep in mind that Class 2 transponders like the TT21 are limited
by regulation to 15,000 ft MSL. Certainly not worth it to me to save a
small amount of power and cost by putting up with a limitation like that.

-Dave

--
Dan, 5J