Cameras and barographs

On Sep 30, 7:07 am, Ian wrote:
On 29 Sep, 15:33, Ian Cant
wrote:

I'd rather it was changed to Silver Distance being 2km * best L/D for
the glider (and similarly for Gold and Diamond: 12km and 20km * best L/
D. Silver distance in modern glass is absurdly easy.


If Silver Distance were THAT EASY, then all would have one by their
second
season and we wouldn't have needed the OLC.

I am very disappointed that we might see and end to cameras and
mechanical barographs. Sometimes it seems that those of us at the
budget end of the sport really aren't welcome any more.

Ian

A budget reflects a choice of priorities. To relish what you can
choose to have
now is one of the better choices.

FYI, I earned my Silver Distance in SGS 1-26A SN 089 and helped grow a
volunteer-supported professional asistance program from a barely 5-
fiqure annual
budget into a professionally full-time staffed organization with a
just under 7-digit
annual budget.

I was also in full-time professional practice myself while doing the
above.

My viewpoint is that our student pilots and those still having to be
at the low budget
end of the sport are the seeds of the future for soaring. I encourage
those who have
been able to choose any advanced budget level of participation to give
a hand up to
those where they themselves used to be.

This includes not simply sharing of advice and club facilities, but
fair pricing of
no longer needed equipment - even an occasional gift.

On Sep 30, 10:07 am, Ian wrote:

[snip]

I'd rather it was changed to Silver Distance being 2km * best L/D for
the glider (and similarly for Gold and Diamond: 12km and 20km * best L/
D. Silver distance in modern glass is absurdly easy.

Then don't forget to factor the available weather conditions into the
equation. For example: It might be a tiny bit easier to achieve
silver in Nevada than in Michigan, on average. ;-)

Regards,

-Doug

The gift idea really works - A little generosity goes a long way.

Previous custodian of my Std Cirrus started a convention that those who do not
have access to a suitable ship use 66 for their Silver distance. This is mainly
a club convenience thing as the prospect of a field retrieve with a Bergfalke or
L13 is unappealing. The Cirrus has a great trailer, and is easy to rig. Of
course with a 1:37 glide it is a little too easy, so we insist on an elective
landing at a field 64km away. In our weather a wet tissue could do that on some
days, but that's life.

After I was the first in the club to buy a logger, I extended the convention to
making the logger available to folk for badge flights. Its a LX20 so is very
self contained, and relatively simple to use.

I imported recording strips for the replogle barograph my LX20 replaced and made
it available to anyone who wanted. So far I am the last person to get any badge
using the Replogle. (I used it for silver height and duration)

Clearly, given the choice people prefer the tech way. On the other hand a second
hand logger is not so expensive if you find a couple of people to share the cost.

Bruce

Roy Clark, B6 wrote:
On Sep 30, 7:07 am, Ian wrote:
On 29 Sep, 15:33, Ian Cant
wrote:

I'd rather it was changed to Silver Distance being 2km * best L/D for
the glider (and similarly for Gold and Diamond: 12km and 20km * best L/
D. Silver distance in modern glass is absurdly easy.


If Silver Distance were THAT EASY, then all would have one by their
second
season and we wouldn't have needed the OLC.

I am very disappointed that we might see and end to cameras and
mechanical barographs. Sometimes it seems that those of us at the
budget end of the sport really aren't welcome any more.

Ian

A budget reflects a choice of priorities. To relish what you can
choose to have
now is one of the better choices.

FYI, I earned my Silver Distance in SGS 1-26A SN 089 and helped grow a
volunteer-supported professional asistance program from a barely 5-
fiqure annual
budget into a professionally full-time staffed organization with a
just under 7-digit
annual budget.

I was also in full-time professional practice myself while doing the
above.

My viewpoint is that our student pilots and those still having to be
at the low budget
end of the sport are the seeds of the future for soaring. I encourage
those who have
been able to choose any advanced budget level of participation to give
a hand up to
those where they themselves used to be.

This includes not simply sharing of advice and club facilities, but
fair pricing of
no longer needed equipment - even an occasional gift.

I believe loggers have been required for records during the last
several years. But barographs & turnpoint photos were admissible
evidence for badges.

My diamond GOAL flight (in a 1-26) was saved by the fact that I
carried a Replogle barograph and disposable cameras (and I read
pertinent parts of Jackie Payne's Badge Book -- especially about
taking another declaration picture when a relight is required to fly
the day away). I had inadvertently entered the wrong longitude for my
start point using that "comfortable DOS software" that I had no choice
but to use with the Volkslogger I still have.

So the paper declaration (with correct lat-lon), barograph and
turnpoint cameras saved the day (and the diamond), and the Badge Lady
appreciated double documentation!

For those of us that can't afford two loggers (recommended by contest
and OLC Champion pilots...), the old dusty barograph & cameras are a
reasonable way to "back up" the normal (and much easier) documentation
obtained by a logger.

In my humble opinion, IGC should still allow barograph and photos for
BADGES, for the sake of TRADITION, if for no other reason. Well,
economy for clubs and neophyte pilots would be another. I think they
(and our representatives in the US) missed the mark. It may be tough
to reverse the tide, but we could request that they revise the
"Sporting" Code (again) and re-allow "old tech" flight recording
devices (barographs & turnpoint photos). The OO's bear the greatest
burden these tools impose (over loggers) -- maybe the Badge
administrators would voice different opinions. If somebody wants to
start a petition to "bring back barographs," I'll happily sign it (and
risk the wrath of the Badge Lady -- I still have to fly a diamond
distance flight to finish my 1-26 trio).

The other reason they should still allow barograph & photos is the
frequent jamming of GPS, which can destroy or contaminate evidence of
an otherwise exemplary flight. This has happened to me (though it
wasn't really an exemplary flight).

FWIW, my five hour endurance for Silver & Gold were documented by a
ground observer. All other legs (including diamond goal and diamond
altitude) were recorded using a Replogle and disposable cameras
(though the OO for the diamond climb chose to use the PRINT from an EW
electronic barograph I was also carrying...but then this device would
no longer be admissable, either!!!).

Yes, all I flew all my badge legs in a 1-26, so you can accuse me of
wanting to do things "the hard way." That is, of course, why I chose
to buy a Volkslogger!

-Pete
#309

309 wrote:

In my humble opinion, IGC should still allow barograph and photos for
BADGES, for the sake of TRADITION, if for no other reason. Well,
economy for clubs and neophyte pilots would be another. I think they
(and our representatives in the US) missed the mark.

My understanding is this is currently a proposal, not a final rule, so
it's not clear to me our representatives have "missed the mark". Has
anyone contacted Eric Mozer to determine the status of the proposal and
how he is inclined to vote?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On 30 Sep, 16:48, "Roy Clark, B6" wrote:

This includes not simply sharing of advice and club facilities, but
fair pricing of
no longer needed equipment - even an occasional gift.

I have an artificial horizon in my Pirat which was sold to me for a
fraction of its value (at Sutton Bank) on the condition that, when I
no longer have need for it, I must sell it for what I paid. It has
been going round cheap gliders for some years!

Ian

On 30 Sep, 18:00, Doug Hoffman wrote:
On Sep 30, 10:07 am, Ian wrote:

[snip]

I'd rather it was changed to Silver Distance being 2km * best L/D for
the glider (and similarly for Gold and Diamond: 12km and 20km * best L/
D. Silver distance in modern glass is absurdly easy.

Then don't forget to factor the available weather conditions into the
equation. For example: It might be a tiny bit easier to achieve
silver in Nevada than in Michigan, on average. ;-)

OK, let's introduce an inverse-speed condition. Silver distance to be
done in no less than two hours, gold five, diamond seven. No dawdling
allowed. It would mean that good days were no advantage.

Hmm. I may have to work on this a bit.

Ian

Ian wrote:

OK, let's introduce an inverse-speed condition. Silver distance to be
done in no less than two hours, gold five, diamond seven. No dawdling
allowed. It would mean that good days were no advantage.

Hmm. I may have to work on this a bit.

Ian


Think you might need to. I flew my Gold distance in over 6 hours, but on
a day when the club pundit decided it wasn't worth a launch. I reckon I
earned it properly! Haven't yet managed Diamond, but in my Open Cirrus
in the UK I don't expect to take less than seven hours if I ever do
manage it.

And what about Silver in a K8 into any kind of a headwind?

My experience of talking to pilots who are trying for their Silver
distance is that the hard part is leaving gliding range of the home
airfield. I guess the exception might be flying somewhere you can take
one climb overhead, and the rest is final glide, but that doesn't happen
in my part of the world. The main barrier for Silver is psychological,
not ability or glider performance.

Chris Reed wrote:
Ian wrote:

OK, let's introduce an inverse-speed condition. Silver distance to be
done in no less than two hours, gold five, diamond seven. No dawdling
allowed. It would mean that good days were no advantage.

Hmm. I may have to work on this a bit.

Think you might need to. I flew my Gold distance in over 6 hours, but on
a day when the club pundit decided it wasn't worth a launch. I reckon I
earned it properly! Haven't yet managed Diamond, but in my Open Cirrus
in the UK I don't expect to take less than seven hours if I ever do
manage it.

And what about Silver in a K8 into any kind of a headwind?

I believe you misunderstood the proposal. It would be a *minimum* time,
not a maximum. In other words, doing your Silver distance in an hour would
not qualify, but doing it in three hours would.

My experience of talking to pilots who are trying for their Silver
distance is that the hard part is leaving gliding range of the home
airfield. I guess the exception might be flying somewhere you can take
one climb overhead, and the rest is final glide, but that doesn't happen
in my part of the world. The main barrier for Silver is psychological,
not ability or glider performance.

I would tend to agree. I haven't done my Silver yet but I did an
unrecorded flight which would have qualified, in under two hours, in a
1-26. I see no reason why that shouldn't count!

I think the sensible thing to do would be to change the distance based on
the L/D of the glider flown. We already change it based on the release
altitude, so this wouldn't be too different. It does seem a bit unfair to
give someone a Silver badge for a 50km flight in an Antares (no offense
YO!) while requiring those same 50km for a 1-26.

On the other hand, life isn't fair. There are always a lot of factors
outside of the pilot. You might have a better glider, you might have a
better day, you might be flying in a better region, etc. What next,
compensate the distance based on the average thermal strength that day?
Require a longer flight if it's taken downwind instead of upwind?
Different badge requirements for each part of the world?

Ultimately the challenges will always be different. When I get a properly
documented Silver distance flight in a 1-26 I know it'll mean a lot more
than having done the same thing in high-performance glass. In the end I
prefer that over a handicap designed to make sure the glass pilot has just
as hard of a time as me.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

That's where the silver/gold five hour duration flight comes in! Or
do you want him to fly 50k and then loiter for an hour and 20 minutes?

I believe you misunderstood the proposal. It would be a *minimum* time,
not a maximum. In other words, doing your Silver distance in an hour would
not qualify, but doing it in three hours would.

I would tend to agree. I haven't done my Silver yet but I did an
unrecorded flight which would have qualified, in under two hours, in a
1-26. I see no reason why that shouldn't count!


Been there, done that, got the badge...and later flew over 5 hours for
diamond goal, in a 1-26. As it was pointed out, do you award "more
points" for doing it on a day that wasn't booming?? How do you
measure and enforce this?

I think the sensible thing to do would be to change the distance based on
the L/D of the glider flown. We already change it based on the release
altitude, so this wouldn't be too different. It does seem a bit unfair to
give someone a Silver badge for a 50km flight in an Antares (no offense
YO!) while requiring those same 50km for a 1-26.


The distances were arbitrarily chosen back when it took exceptional
skill in the best glider of the day to fly the tasks. I doubt weather
was considered much, especially if you consider that the original
silver/gold/diamond requirements were laid out long before mountain
wave was understood. So we would not shorten the distances for a
1-26, we'd LENGTHEN them for the 30+ ships.

However, I would rather leave the rules UNchanged, as I said earlier,
for the sake of tradition. And I am humble: my 1-26 is a stellar
performer compared to the ships that were used to fly the first
silver, gold and diamond flights. It's probably more comfortable,
too. So to honor my soaring ancestors, once I get that third diamond
in my 1-26, I'll start over -- and fly them with the open cockpit
attachments ("Sports Canopy").

-Pete
#309