Enlisted pilots

Sid- I know of one plowback/retread who eventually had command of an
operational squadron, the rag, got his deep draft, and finally a wing.
BRBR

name please??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
care.



"Jake Donovan" wrote in message news:smQJa.21975$H17.17298@lakeread03...
John,

I am active duty. I am also work closely with NAVAIR, Air Warfare and
CNATRA and can tell you 100% that there are NO enlisted members of the Navy
qualified to wear wings of gold or silver. He may be a SEAL, but he isn't a
Naval Aviator. He may wear a SEAL Device, but did you ever see him wear
Silver Naval Aviator Wings? And YES, I have questioned the badges and quals
of many officers and enlisted in my job. And YES, there have been more
cases than we'd like to admit of active duty members wearing devices they
were not qualified to wear. Officers and Enlisted alike.

Last Enlisted Naval Aviator actually retired in 1980 and not 81 even though
it has been recorded as such.

"Annual Report, Bureau of Naval Personnel Statistics (Report 15658),
discontinued in mid FY 1993. Figures for enlisted personnel in aviation
rates for FY 1993*95 provided^directly from BuPers, PERS 221D.Note-Does not
include men in training. Aviation rates under Navy for years 1933*39 include
general service ratings assigned to aviation duty. Enlisted pilots
for1920*26 are included under aviation rates. All Navy figures for World War
II period, 1940*45, include Coast Guard. Figures not available for Marine
Corps, 1920*29.594UNITED STATES NAVAL AVIATION 1910*1995Aviation Personnel
on Active Duty-Continued"

I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled. The
leather (or cloth patch) with NFO wings on it doesn't mean squat to me
unless I know the man personally, or I have seen his NATOPS jacket.

As for him being a pilot, sure, he could be, a private pilot. Heck, I know
civilian pilots who have been allowed pilot Naval aircraft. As for Secial
Ops in a C-12? There are no special OPs missions for C-12s. A C-12 is a
Beech (Raytheon) Super King Air Primary Function: Passenger and (UC12) cargo
airlift (Has been used for Med Evac and Maritime Aviation Training)

C141 and C17? Now you are either dreaming or your friend is pulling your
leg over your head and up somewhere else. The AF has its own Special Ops
teams and Pilots to fly them. I know of a couple of Navy test Pilots that
have a few hours in a C17, but to suggest an enlisted SEAL flys them
regularly for special OPs missions?

I talked to J B Hollyer yesterday and he laughed when I mentioned Special
OPs in C or UC-12s. Why? He is the former CO of VX20, NAWC - NAVAIR. They
do ALL testing and eval for the C-12. He did tell me the type may have been
used by other folks to run special OPs like drugs, but not in the Navy and
not by the SEALS. As for the C17 and C141, it took him a few minutes to pick
the phone back up and compose himself.

I may just call RADM Cocker tomorrow and put an end to this thread.


JD
Capt USN (no ret at the end of that title)

On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
, "M Power"
wrote:

You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
care.



Mpower...

Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of contention
in the thread.

--Woody

"Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" wrote in message ...
On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
, "M Power"
wrote:

You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
care.



Mpower...

Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of contention
in the thread.

--Woody

Woody - I wish I could answer that, but none of the guys I know wear
their wings. I really don't know what they would wear.

On 7/16/03 6:40 AM, in article
, "M Power"
wrote:

"Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...
On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
, "M Power"
wrote:

You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
care.



Mpower...

Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of contention
in the thread.

--Woody

Woody - I wish I could answer that, but none of the guys I know wear
their wings. I really don't know what they would wear.

That's cool.

In my mind, that's what the dispute in the thread is over. In other words,
I heard wind of a program that trained SEALS to fly aircraft through the
civilian training pipeline using Navy money--slimy but effective. Just like
you posted... They fly civilian aircraft. So these guys were full-fledged
pilots employed by the Navy, but they were not Naval Aviators, and thus not
entitled to wear the gold wings. They're Navy pilots but not Naval
Aviators.

Just like if I went through some survivalist course and/or learned how to
shoot and perform some SEAL-like skills, I would not be entitled to wear the
Budweiser pin.

The Navy has a similar program for ROTC students slated to go to flight
school. They can go to an approved civilian part 141 school where the Navy
will provide vouchers for them to get 20 hours of instruction.

--Woody

Doug- The Navy has a similar program for ROTC students slated to go to flight
school. They can go to an approved civilian part 141 school where the Navy
will provide vouchers for them to get 20 hours of instruction. BRBR

I did this in 1970-Called FIP, Flight Indoctriation Program...but got 40 hours
and 50 hours of ground school, just had to pay for the check ride to get my
private ticket...a Great deal.

Paid for by the USN...flew civilain aircraft...wasn't a Naval Aviator or even
Navy pilot tho...


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

MPower,

I was going to let the originator decide where to take this but you need to
be corrected. After contacting all organizations that have anything to do
with Naval Aviation training and the SEALS, there are NO, I repeat NO
enlisted NAVAL AVIATORS in the Navy.

The people you are referring to were trained for special missions in private
aircraft and do not hold a 13XX designator. They may be pilots who are in
the Navy, but they are NOT Naval Aviators nor can they fly as Pilot in
Command of any Naval Aircraft without a designated Naval Aviator in a dual
controlled aircraft. They can not LOG anytime in a Naval Aircraft, even if
they get stick time.

And to clear another point up, the original person who was "one of 11
enlisted pilots" who just retired, was trained through this program and was
not a NAVAL AVIATOR. He was a private pilot. Yes, his service jacket was
looked at.

Being a pilot and being a Naval Aviator are not the same. In the same
breath, a 1310 designated Naval Aviator who does not hold a Private Pilot
Certificate can not fly solo in a privately owned Cessna 172 legally.

This should tie-up all loose ends.

JD

"M Power" wrote in message
om...
"Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...
On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
, "M Power"
wrote:

You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
care.



Mpower...

Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of
contention
in the thread.

--Woody

Woody - I wish I could answer that, but none of the guys I know wear
their wings. I really don't know what they would wear.

Erm. Have you forgotten where you are posting, Jake? This is the
Usenet. *Nothing* can tie up all loose ends on the Usenet. There
will always be one "But my best friend's uncle's third-cousin-twice-
removed's wife saw the sun rise in the West on May 2, 1904. So
there!"

"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Well, it ain't over
now!"

"Jake Donovan" wrote in message
news:6UcRa.16144$AD3.3690@lakeread04...
MPower,

I was going to let the originator decide where to take this but you need
to
be corrected. After contacting all organizations that have anything to
do
with Naval Aviation training and the SEALS, there are NO, I repeat NO
enlisted NAVAL AVIATORS in the Navy.

The people you are referring to were trained for special missions in
private
aircraft and do not hold a 13XX designator. They may be pilots who are in
the Navy, but they are NOT Naval Aviators nor can they fly as Pilot in
Command of any Naval Aircraft without a designated Naval Aviator in a dual
controlled aircraft. They can not LOG anytime in a Naval Aircraft, even
if
they get stick time.

And to clear another point up, the original person who was "one of 11
enlisted pilots" who just retired, was trained through this program and
was
not a NAVAL AVIATOR. He was a private pilot. Yes, his service jacket was
looked at.


As I suspected. To further the point, my father, a retired NFO, has
hundreds of hours of private pilot time logged in Naval aircraft, but he
would never claim to be a Navy pilot.

"C.D. Damron" wrote in
As I suspected. To further the point, my father, a retired NFO,
has hundreds of hours of private pilot time logged in Naval
aircraft, but he would never claim to be a Navy pilot.

How did he meet the FAA requirement of "rated in type" in order
to log the time as "pilot flight time"? Rated-in-type is a
requirement for all aircraft over 12'500# and jet aircraft.

Bob Moore
ATP B-707 B-727
USN S-2F P-2V P-3B
CFI ASEL-IA