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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
guy wrote:
On 10 Dec, 04:22, Mike wrote: StrategyPage.com December 2, 2009 The Melting Deck Plates Muddle by James Dunnigan Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter. So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.) The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks, both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs. This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long development of either aircraft. Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a real problem. How did they manage with the AV8/Harrier then? Ski jump off, slow rolling landing on. -- William Black "Any number under six" The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff. |
#12
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 02:57:36 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum
wrote: snipped for brevity Or use the rocket launch technique and spray water across the take-off area. Probably less than optimal. Large clouds of hot, salt water steam would be an annoyance (at a minimum) to the deck crew. It would also be a highly corrosive material that could serious complicate maintenance of both ship and aircraft. Use of fresh water would likely be an excessive demand on the evaporators. The piping of cooling water suggested earlier would be a better idea. It would likely be cheaper that major modifications such as a "ski jump" and permit the continued use of the vertical capability of the aircraft. |
#13
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
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#14
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
On Dec 9, 11:22*pm, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com December 2, 2009 The Melting Deck Plates Muddle by James Dunnigan Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter. So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.) The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks, both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs. This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long development of either aircraft. Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a real problem. How about false deck mobile deflectors that would be rolled into place and exchanged between launches? The tractors exist. |
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
On Dec 10, 12:23*am, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote: In article 3f72b032-2be2-4377-a180-01d7a81404fe@d2 1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com, *Mike wrote: StrategyPage.com The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks, both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs. This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long development of either aircraft. Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a real problem. Use what NASA uses for the shuttle? Wouldn't cost that much at all It is a BIG f-ing "oops", and I think that the Navy's RFP is a little silly. They want a product that doesn't require alteration to the flight deck, is easily applied and repaired, and doesn't cost much. Presumably it has to be environmentally friendly too. It wouldn't surprise me if someone asked for it to be organic as well. I dunno, I'd assume that NASA could provide some expertise there, but whether or not the Navy actually is willing to ask for it is another story. |
#16
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
On Dec 10, 6:26*am, William Black wrote:
guy wrote: On 10 Dec, 04:22, Mike wrote: StrategyPage.com December 2, 2009 The Melting Deck Plates Muddle by James Dunnigan Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter. So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.) The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks, both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs. This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long development of either aircraft. Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a real problem. How did *they manage with the AV8/Harrier then? Ski jump off, *slow rolling landing on. -- William Black "Any number under six" The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff. Here's a V-22 landing and taking off from HMS Illustrious. Any damage done or a different deck? http://www.skycontrol.net/helicopter...or-first-time/ |
#17
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
"Bill Kambic" wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 02:57:36 -0800 (PST), Jack Linthicum wrote: snipped for brevity Or use the rocket launch technique and spray water across the take-off area. Probably less than optimal. Large clouds of hot, salt water steam would be an annoyance (at a minimum) to the deck crew. It would also be a highly corrosive material that could serious complicate maintenance of both ship and aircraft. Use of fresh water would likely be an excessive demand on the evaporators. The piping of cooling water suggested earlier would be a better idea. It would likely be cheaper that major modifications such as a "ski jump" and permit the continued use of the vertical capability of the aircraft. A water cooled heatsink built into a part of the deck designated for "hot" aircraft makes a lot of sense. |
#18
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
"David E. Powell" wrote in message ... Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there. Try simple things first! I really doubt that the problem is severe enough to require a high-tech approach. First, a simple change in procedures to reduce time with the engines in the vertical position will greatly reduce the problem. A designated landing pad made of metal that will stand the heat with an underlayment to prevent heat transfer to the underlying deck will solve the problem. Yes, the resulting uneven deck would be a PITA for the deck crew, but the pad would not need to be more than an inch or two thick with tapering edges for the transition. After the plane departs, a quick hosedown would likely be a good idea for crew safety & to prevent melted tires. This issue could hardly be a "surprise" or even a "muddle". The potential problem of deck heating from VTOL aircraft has been well known for decades. When I first reported aboard the Guam (LPH-9) the crew were talking about the deck tests they had done with the (then new & revolutionary) Harrier just weeks before. Vaughn |
#19
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
On Dec 9, 11:23*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas-
wrote: In article 3f72b032-2be2-4377-a180-01d7a81404fe@d2 1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com, *Mike wrote: StrategyPage.com December 2, 2009 The Melting Deck Plates Muddle by James Dunnigan Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter. So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.) The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks, both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs. This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long development of either aircraft. Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a real problem. Use what NASA uses for the shuttle? Wouldn't cost that much at all Yeah except for not walking, parking, raining, hailing or dropping a wrench on the coating it would be great. |
#20
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 05:46:12 -0800 (PST), Typhoon502
wrote: On Dec 10, 12:23*am, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas- wrote: In article 3f72b032-2be2-4377-a180-01d7a81404fe@d2 1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com, *Mike wrote: StrategyPage.com The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks, both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs. This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long development of either aircraft. Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a real problem. Use what NASA uses for the shuttle? Wouldn't cost that much at all It is a BIG f-ing "oops", and I think that the Navy's RFP is a little silly. They want a product that doesn't require alteration to the flight deck, is easily applied and repaired, and doesn't cost much. Presumably it has to be environmentally friendly too. It wouldn't surprise me if someone asked for it to be organic as well. A product that meets your requirement is allum-impregnated teak. I'd be quite astonished if the navy didn't know it, they read history too. Of course, splinters from the stuff are painful and tend to go septic, it costs terribly, . . . . To me, it looks as if they know that they'll have to cut steel but need to do some homework first. I dunno, I'd assume that NASA could provide some expertise there, but whether or not the Navy actually is willing to ask for it is another story. Peter Skelton |
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